A Conversion

A Conversion 03/03/10

A now former atheist accounts for his move to theism.


Authored by: Nocterro.


A Necessary Being

First I will examine this argument from Joshua Rasmussen[1]:

(1) Intrinsic properties that can be exemplified by something that has a cause are such that if any one were to begin to be exemplified, that beginning could have a cause.
(2) There can begin to be contingent (non-necessary) things.
(3) Being contingent is an intrinsic property.
(4) Some contingent things can have a cause.
(5) Therefore, there can be a cause of a beginning to the existence of contingent things [from (1) – (4)].
(6) If (5), then there is a Necessary Being.
(7) Therefore, there is a Necessary Being.

It should be noted here that this is not necessarily an argument for God, rather it is an argument for something which has causal power and cannot fail to exist. This argument employs a very weak causal principle – even weaker than the W-PSR. Rasmussen gives the following analogy to explain intrinsic properties being caused to begin to be exemplified:

Consider first the property of being an armchair. That property began to be exemplified when the first armchair was constructed, and of course, that beginning had a cause. Consider next an intrinsic property that has never been exemplified, but could be: being a fifteen-legged animal, say. It is plausible that if that property were to begin to be exemplified, that beginning could be caused: imagine an evolutionary process leading to the birth of the first fifteen-legged animal.

So considering this, (1) seems to work, at least for things such as “being blue” and “being rectangular”.

(2) and (4) seem so obvious, I do not feel that they need a defense. However, I will defend them if an objection arises. But what of (3)? Rasmussen explains intrinsic properties thus:

(I) p is intrinsic if there is no external relation r, such that (anyone who fully grasps p, thereby grasps r, and it is not necessary that if p is exemplified by an x, then x bears r to x or one of x’s parts).

An example of an intrinsic property would be mass; physical objects have mass no matter where they are, and no matter what conditions they are under. An objects’ mass always = x. Weight, however, is an extrinsic property. An objects’ weight will be X on earth, but may be Y somewhere else. So, it seems apparent that contingency is an intrinsic property. We are not contingent because of anything, we just are.

(5) of course follows from (1) – (4). (6) Follows from (5) because things can only be necessary or contingent, and something contingent cannot cause the beginning of the existence of contingent things; this thing would have to cause itself to do that. So we arrive at (7) There is a necessary Being. It should be noted here that this argument is very modest – the “Being” in the conclusion does not need to be God, or even something supernatural; this being could very well be entirely natural, as long as it is necessary.

Is God Coherent?

Given that the previous argument does not necessarily show there is a God, why do I think there is? The first step is to show that God is a coherent idea; that is, I must show that this being could possibly exist. I will start by explaining what I mean by “God”, and define His attributes:

God:

There exists a necessary being with properties including, but not necessarily limited to, perfect freedom, omnipotence, omniscience, perfect goodness, who caused the beginning of the existence of contingent things, and who may or may not have created the universe.

Perfect Freedom:

If P does A freely, then no cause makes him do A. He is ultimately responsible for A being done; for nothing makes him make A be done. [...] An action, I suggest, is a free action if and only if the agent’s choosing to do that action, that is having the intention to produce the result of that action, has no full explanation—of any kind, whether of the kind described by scientific explanation or of the kind described by personal explanation. [...] But the suggestion that a man might see refraining from A as over all better than doing A, be subject to no non-rational influences inclining him in the direction of doing A and nevertheless do A, is incoherent. [...] it follows that a perfectly free agent will never do an action if he judges that over all it would be worse to do the action than to refrain from it; he will never do an action if he acknowledges overriding reasons for refraining from doing it. Similarly, he will always do an action if he acknowledges overriding reasons for doing it rather than for refraining from doing it, if he judges that doing it would be over all better than refraining from doing it.[2]

Omnipotence:

A person P is omnipotent at a time t if and only if he is able to bring about the existence of any logically contingent state of affairs x after t, the description of the occurrence of which does not entail that P did not bring it about at t, given that he does not believe that he has overriding reason for refraining from bringing about x.[2]

Omniscience:

A person P is omniscient at time t if and only if he knows every true proposition about t or an earlier time and every true proposition about a time later than t which is true of logical necessity or which he has overriding reason to make true, which it is logically possible that he entertains then.[2]

Perfect Goodness:

A person P is perfectly good if P is so constituted that he always does what there is overriding reason to do, and always refrains from doing what there is overriding reason for not doing.[2]

Given that moral judgements have truth values, an omniscient person will know them. His judgements about which actions are morally bad and which actions are morally good will be true judgements. Hence a perfectly free and omniscient being can never do actions that are morally bad, and will always do the best action, or an equal best action, or a best kind or an equal best kind of action (if there are these) [3]

Swinburne’s view is that God’s perfect freedom, omnipotence and omniscience entail his perfect goodness. That is, if X is omniscient and omnipotent, X will always know what the best action is to take, and will be able to take that action. Furthermore, X will know “I ought to take the best action”. So, as per his freedom, this will be an overriding reason to take that action, and thus He will.

First Cause:
It has already been shown that this being is the cause of the beginning of the existence of contingent things (see section I). But what of the universe; is this being the direct cause of the universe, or only indirectly, by virtue of causing contingent things? Well, I think that remains to be seen. This issue still seems to me to be explored further, as there are good arguments as to whether God is the direct cause of the universe on both sides.

Granting that all these properties are coherent, it follows that God is coherent; that is, He could exist.

Moving from A to B

So, two things have been established:
1) There exists some sort of necessary being.
2) The concept of God is coherent.

But are there reasons to think that the necessary being is God (that this being has the properties of God)? I again cite Rasmussen in support that God is the necessary being. He first introduces the concept of a gridscape[4]:

(1) Gridscape S =(def) For some concrete objects, the x’s, and some intrinsic properties and/or relations, the y’s, S is the state of affairs of the x’s instantiating the y’s.

That is, imagine four concrete objects represented as dots. These dots have circles attached to them, representing properties; and lines connecting them, representing relations. He then introduces a related concept:

(2) Wholly contingent gridscape S =(def) A gridscape all of whose properties and/or relations are contingently (not necessarily) instantiated by concrete objects in the gridscape.

He then introduces a causal principle:

Causal “x ((x is a wholly contingent gridscape) → ◊(x’s obtaining is causally explained)). {or} for any bunch of contingent, intrinsic properties or relations, their joint instantiation can be causally explained. For example, John’s jellybean being red can be causally explained.

Further on, he offers an argument for the omnipotence of the necessary being (N):

For any measurable [finite] attribute A, where A consists in having determinable D to degree µ, and any concrete object x that has A, there is some degree such that it is possible for x to have D to degree µ – e or µ + e.

That is, if we say a being has a finite amount of power, that being could have a little more or a little less power. This implies that having an attribute to a certain degree is contingent, because it could have been a slightly higher or slightly lower degree. Let us assume this is the case, and we have a gridscape containing some number of contingent objects, and the necessary being from section I. Let us also assume this being has finite power. If this is the case, then this property would be contingent, and we no longer have the necessary being we need to explain contingent things. So, N must be infinitely powerful.

Next he discusses free agency:

If N is not a personal agent, then if N brings about a state of affairs, N does so in virtue of exemplifying some property or properties, perhaps in combination with some law obtaining.

The idea behind this is that if N causes X, it did so either through free choice, or because it was a certain way/had certain properties. So, let’s imagine a gridscape again, this time one in which N is not a free agent. If this is the case, then N has “probability-fixing properties”; properties which will entail that there is a certain degree of probability that a wholly contingent gridscape G obtains. But let’s say that N has a property such that it creates a 0.2 probability of G obtaining. We again run into the same problem; it could be slightly higher or lower, and this leads to a wholly contingent gridscape.

Now, what of omniscience? Again, we run into the same problem:

If N is a personal agent, then N is capable of knowing at least something.

Let’s suppose that N has a finite degree of knowledge. Once again, N could have slightly more or slightly less knowledge, which leads to a wholly contingent gridscape.

Finally, what of perfect goodness? We have previously seen Swinburne’s view; that perfect goodness is entailed by God’s other attributes. However Rasmussen gives another argument:

Now suppose that N is finitely good (has finite degree of positive moral status) or finitely bad (has finite degree of negative moral status) or both. Suppose also that: There can be no causal explanation for N’s having the degree of positive or negative moral status that it has (had and will have).

Just as with the other attributes, we see that N could be slightly more or less morally praiseworthy. This leads to the conclusion that N must be either infinitely good, or infinitely bad. Rasmussen offers this in support of N being infinitely good:

N has at least some positive moral status: there is a situation in which N would freely bring about a good state of affairs.

This, combined with Swinburne’s thoughts on moral goodness, lays out a strong case for N being perfectly good.

Conclusion

So finally, we come to this:

1) There exists a necessary being.
2) This necessary being is, given its attributes, likely to be a being we may consider “God”.

Of course, much more may be said on this line of reasoning; it is quite complex and I have not even begun to explain all the details. I have not included any possible objections, or addressed the various atheistic arguments. However, I hope this brief summary will inspire further inquiry into my new-found belief in God.

_________

[1]Rasmussen, Joshua. “A New Argument For A Necessary Being.” Yale & UConn Graduate Conference (Feb 2009).

[2]Swinburne, Richard. The Coherence of Theism. 2nd ed. Oxford University Press, 1993. Print.

[3]Swinburne, Richard. The Existence of God. 2nd ed. Oxford University Press, 2004. Print.

[4]Rasmussen, Joshua. “From A Necessary Being to God.” International Journal of Philosophy of Religion. 66.1 (2009): 1-13. Print.


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  • Fishpasta
    I'm amazed that nobody took the time to ask what you define a being as, as I am very interested to know Noct.
  • Josh
    Or perhaps the metaphysics of time...

    My tentative inclination is to suspect that if X is a necessary effect of Y and Y had no beginning, then neither did X. But let's suppose that you are right: e.g., if God necessarily exists and necessarily creates Adam, it could be that God necessarily creates Adom at a particular time. In that case, we'd say that Adam had a beginning despite his being necessarily existent. That's a nice case, but I don't see how it's incompatible with my account of "begins to exist", for that account allows that Adam began to exist due to his existence not being included in a state that isn't part of a time. I suppose that's your point--it's the timelessness that makes the difference.

    This leads us to the worry that no person could be timeless--a worry I'm sympathetic with, depending upon how "timelessness" is understood. I have two reply thoughts:

    1. If a timeless person is not possible, then any uncreated necessarily existing person (e.g., God) would be sempiternal (eternal but essentially temporal). Thus, if a necessary divine person is possible, then (assuming S5) no possible world is equiped with a first moment. This goes back to the point that one might well consider the initial feeling that a beginning to all persons is possible to be epistemically cancelled by an initial feeling that a necessary divine person is possible. But perhaps it strikes you as more obvious that there could be a first moment than that there could be a necessary divine person.

    2. I think of "timelessness" as a changeless state that isn't moving toward or from another state (to put it loosely). (Perhaps it would be better to talk in terms of dynamic verses static states rather than "temporal" verses "atemporal" states.) In the Adam case, his very first state counts as "temporal" because it comes from a prior state in which he does not exist. The first state of the universe counts as temporal if it started out in transition to another state. But imagine a world in which there is just a single red ball that has no dymanic properties at all (such as expanding, moving, etc.). We might call it "timeless." Suppose that it can spontaneously split into two pieces and that it in fact does so. I would say that this splitting event marks the beginning of "time" (or at least change) and so the ball now exists in time, though we may call its first state "timeless." (Note: the ball itself didn't begin to exist even though there is an earliest moment of time at which it exists.) This situation doesn't strike me as problematic "time"-wise. Would things be problematic if instead of the ball, there was a divine person who spontaneously decided to create things, thereby marking the beginning of time? It's difficult for me to see a problem with that, but these are murcky matters and others may see things differently (which is why the argument is, in principle, defeasible.)
  • Josh
    "there begins to be (say) all possible things" is ambiguous: I meant to refer to a beginning of all the things that in that world have the property of being possible...
  • Nocterro
    Josh,

    Thank you very much for taking the time to visit this little corner of the internet :)
  • Mark
    I'm using "intrinsic" as defined above. "p is intrinsic if there is no external relation r, such that (anyone who fully grasps p, thereby grasps r, and it is not necessary that if p is exemplified by an x, then x bears r to x or one of x’s parts)." This has nothing to do with "essences."
  • Mark
    Thing I posted on the blog I found this post from (The Uncredible Hallq): It seems (1) is false. Let P be the property of possibly entering into causal relations. Then P is intrinsic, I have P and I am possibly caused. Plausibly, there could possibly be a beginning to things that are P. (At least, it's as plausible as there being a possible beginning to contingent things.) Therefore, possibly something causes there to be things with P. But this entails something is possibly self-caused.

    Is this objection confused somehow?
  • Mark
    O.K., I just went back to look at this and a few things occurred to me. I failed to read your definition of "intrinsic property" closely, and I think the property P I chose (as I described it) doesn't satisfy the definition. For it explicitly includes the notion of a causal relation, and thus to grasp P it seems one must grasp the (possibly) external relation of causality.

    First, however, I think this is more a problem of your definition, as certain properties will fail or pass the test depending on how they're described. We might begin life with a basic, non-relational understanding of a property called "inertness" (as would apply, e.g., to abstract objects like numbers, but also to concreta that sit all alone in a universe and never undergo change or appear to change anything else), in which case we'd analyze the property of possibly entering into causal relations as that of being non-necessarily inert. But in this case, "possibly entering into causal relations" would be intrinsic.

    Second, there are other plausibly intrinsic properties you could pick to milk contradictions out of (1). Here's a small selection: being possible, being either contingent or actual, being a concrete particular (this works assuming you don't think abstracta can cause anything), exemplifying a property.

    Third, we could use (1) to derive all sorts of non-theistic necessary beings by plugging in appropriate intrinsic properties. Here again is a sample: being intelligent, being a free agent, being morally good, being identical to all of one's parts.
  • Josh
    Mark, these are truly very insightful comments. Thanks for expressing them.

    I would suggest that the examples you supplied (in First, Second, and Third) all face one important difficulty: they are incompatible with the possibility of a necessary divine being. This is tricky: I'm not saying one should grant the possibility of a necessary divine being from the start; that would be question-begging. I'm suggesting rather that the counter-examples will only seem evident to one who already thinks that a necessary divine being is not possible and so non-actual. Thus, the examples will only be evident to one if either (i) it seems to one that a necessary divine being is impossible or (ii) they are based upon modal insight (and not merely due to an inability to see their impossibility: cf. my note to you on Hallq's blog). Option (i) won't apply to someone who is initially neutral (agnostic) with respect to a necessary divine being. Option (ii) strikes me as implausible, as I don't think we have modal insight into the possibility that there begins to be (say) all possible things. But if we did, then I should think we'd have equally forceful insight into the possibility that there be a maximally excellent being, which would, per the modal ontological argument, epistemically cancel the force of the insight into (ii), leaving us rightfully agnostic about both. So, it seems to me that if one is initially agnostic about the existence of a Necessary Being (or for Third--a divine Necessary Being), then one will be agnostic about whether any of the examples you propose go through.

    Now you might reply that if what I said above is correct, then one could use the same reasoning to resist the premise that there can begin to be contingent things. For my reply to that, see my comment on your previous comment. :)
  • Mark
    Hi. In light of these comments, I think I need some clarification on what you mean by "begins to be exemplfied." I thought it just meant "there is an earliest time t at which it's true that some object exemplifies the relevant property." It seems obvious to me that under this definition, there could be a beginning to, e.g., possible things. (This would be realized at any world equipped with a first moment in time, and such that it's true at that moment that something exists.) That you say it's not obvious suggests to me you're using a different, subtler notion. Perhaps you want to say some properties like possibility aren't always truly exemplfied "at" specific moments in time, even though it's true at specific moments in time that they (timelessly) are exemplified, or something like that.
  • Josh
    Allow me to clarify. Suppose that time begins with the origin of the universe at t0. And suppose that abstracta are necessarily existing entities; thus, suppose that the number 5 is necessarily existent. Given those conceptual possibilities, notice: there is an earliest time, namely t0, at which something exemplifies being identical to the number 5. Should we say, then, that the property of being identical to the number 5 began to be exemplified despite the assumption that it is necessarily exemplified? I suspect most would say not. After all, the number 5 is (per stipulation) necessarily existent, and we don't ordinarily think of necessarily existent things as having a beginning. So, you're right: by 'begins to be exemplified' I do not have in mind exactly what you suggest.

    I actually don't have an analysis of 'begins to be' in terms of times, as I prefer to analyze times in terms of 'begins to be' (or 'comes to be'). If pressed, though, I might offer this translation: 'x began to be exemplified' = 'there is a time t, such that (i) t "includes" x's being exemplified; (ii) t is the earliest time; (iii) there is no state S, such that S "includes" x's being exemplified and S is not part of a time. This account falls out of my present understanding of times as transitions between states. Thus, I can say that being the number 5 didn't begin to be exemplified (if it is necessarily existent) because its being exemplified is included in a state that isn't itself part of a time.

    But even if we stick with your definition, that only suggests, I think, that we need to adjust the language of the causal principle so that it doesn't imply that necessary things, like the number 5, could have a cause if time were finite. Does that seem right?
  • Mark
    That's helpful, thanks. It seems to me that it's improper to describe the number 5 as beginning to be self-identical not because 5 necessarily exists and necessarily is self identical, but rather because the number 5, as an abstract object, isn't temporally located. Imagine instead that God necessarily exists, and necessarily has sufficient reason to create Adam at a certain moment in time. Then it seems that Adam necessarily exists and is necessarily identical to Adam, but it makes perfect sense to describe Adam as beginning to be self-identical, no? And if God necessarily creates Adam at the first moment in time, my intuition would still be preserved. So this intuition seems like evidence against your analysis of "begins to exist."

    Regardless, I find accounts on which God is able to act within time but is not himself temporally located difficult to understand. Indeed, I find it difficult to understand how any sort of person could possibly exist outside of time. So I don't have an intuition that there's a non-temporal state that God belongs to even possibly. So I don't feel I have a defeater to my intuition that God (or any other person) could begin to exist. Therefore, I could run the property "is a person" through (1) to get something capable of causing persons (including God) to begin to exist. Maybe your intuitions diverge from mine, though. Hence it seems this argument turns on the metaphysics of persons.
  • Mattdapimp7
    2 Peter 3:8-9 ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
  • noen
    I think this whole discussion is confused. I don't accept that there exist any intrinsic properties of things at all. It all smells of 17th century "physick" to me. I would accept "intensive and extensive" properties but then under that definition mass is extensive and therefore this argument is false.

    "In the physical sciences, an intensive property (also called a bulk property), is a physical property of a system that does not depend on the system size or the amount of material in the system: it is scale invariant. By contrast, an extensive property of a system does depend on the system size or the amount of material in the system."

    Philosophers should not attempt to reason about physics without actually understanding it. Nor should they carry over unscientific concepts from their domain. They should be discarded instead.
  • Mark
    There are plenty of intrinsic properties, e.g., being composed of atoms., or being roughly spherical.
  • noen
    Those would be intensive properties. "Intrinsic" seems to imply "essential" and there are no essential properties of matter. There are no essences period. It is a 19th century concept that has long been rejected by all science. If it is indeed true that in some philosophical circles "intrinsic" means something the same as "essential" (I guess I don't really know, maybe there is some nuance I'm unaware of.) well then so much the worse for any theories that depend on such a false conception of the world.

    *Any* philosophical claims that rely on essence are categorically false.
  • Mark
    Here's another thought. Say a property is favorable if it's intrinsic and it (possibly) attaches to some causally dependent beings. Then (1) states that for each favorable property P, possibly something causes the first exemplification(s) of P. The motivation for (1) seems to be that I can think of a bunch of favorable properties that, as Rasmussen puts it in his paper, cry out for at least a possible explanation. If the universe is filled with nothing but a million blue marbles, I can at least imagine something that first caused those marbles to be blue. I already know things can inaugurate the existence of blue marbles without being blue (or marbles), so this modal intuition is perfectly plausible.

    But can I really be confident that something can begin the universe's first contingent beings without being itself contingent? Such a beginner would obviously have to be necessary, and unlike the ordinary case above, I don't have antecedent reason to suppose necessary (causally active) beings are possible. So in order to make it plausible to me that contingency is a favorable property, it seems one has to already have shown necessary beings are possible, i.e., that a necessary being exists.
  • Josh
    This is an excellent consideration! I'm pleased to see my little argument being analyzed at this depth. I appreciate this feedback, as I'm presently refining my presentation with the hope of submitting it for academic peer review. The dialectic here is tricky. Someone could have this perspective: (i) the causal principle is supported by a wide variety of cases, and I cannot think of any counter-examples (more on this in my comment on your next comment); (ii) it sure seems at least possible for there to be a beginning to the existence of contingent things, and thus since some contingent things clearly have a cause, being contingent, seems to be a favorable property. Now from (i) and (ii), it follows that something can begin a universe's first contingent things. If one perceives that that cannot be so unless there is a necessary being, one might then be inclined to think there is a necessary being on the basis of (i) and (ii). (I suspect that was nocterno's way of thinking.) That seems to me to be perfectly rational.

    On the other hand, one might view the matter this way: I don't actually have a direct modal insight into whether or there could begin to be contingent things. The feeling that there could begin to be contingent things is due merely to one's not seeing any impossibility in the idea; but it's not due to one's actually seeing that such a beginning is possible. I see that only a necessary being could be a possible beginner of contingent things, and since I am agnostic about whether there is a necessary being, I am agnostic about whether or not there could be a beginning to contingent things (or perhaps agnostic about the conjunction of (i) and (ii).). I think this, too, is a rational response. Thus, I don't view this argument as being rationally compelling to everyone. However, one who takes this way out should consider carefully whether or not thesis that there could be a beginning to contingent things is not independently evident (gleaned by genuine modal insight), rather than a mere inability to detect an impossibility.

    More on the causal premise at the next comment.
  • Josh
    To clarify my last comment: I think the way out I suggested can be rational for those who do not finding it independently plausible that there can be a beginning to contingent things. However, I suspect that many in the target audience would find the possibility of such a beginning to be plausible. So, again: I think one can rationally come to believe in a Necessary Being on the basis of the argument, though not everyone is forced by reason to do so.
  • Mark
    "Therefore, possibly something causes there to be things with P." The objection would perhaps be more clear if this instead read, "Therefore, there can be a cause of the beginning of things with P."
  • Josh
    Minor correction: I noticed that the post cites the wrong paper. The argument summarized is from an unpublished paper, "A New Argument for a Necessary Being," not the Phil Studies one.
  • Josh
    Minor correction: I noticed that the post cites the wrong paper. The argument summarized is from an unpublished paper, "A New Argument for a Necessary Being," not the Phil Studies one.
  • Nocterro
    Oops...fixed. Ty!
  • I think I agree largely with Josh here, we should be commending Nocterro at the very least for showing a willingness to follow the evidence where he thinks it leads.
  • Which assumes a non-Christian worldview which is inconsistent with what Josh claims he is. What am I talking about? All of the evidence leads toward God who is the Truth (Psalm 19, Romans 1, John 14.6). No unbelievers seek God (the Truth).

    "In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, "There is no God." (Psalm 10.4)

    In other words, I am being consistent with my worldview in the comments I make rather than undermining it. What my worldview claims for itself may be rejected by others and even offensive, but it is still what my worldview claims for itself.

    But anyway...still no answer to at least one of my questions. Also what is meant by "exemplified"?
  • Guest
    Link to an interesting case for Christian theism: http://www.lydiamcgrew.com/Resurrectionarticlesin...
  • noen
    The argument is hopelessly confused. Just because I construct an armchair doesn't mean that a Necessary Being must exist.

    "physical objects have mass no matter where they are, and no matter what conditions they are under."

    No they don't. You are trying to argue for some form of essentialism with your concept of "intrinsic properties". That is how you sneak in your Necessary Being in through the back door.

    "(5) of course follows from (1) – (4)."

    Again, no it doesn't.

    "Let’s suppose that N has a finite degree of knowledge. Once again, N could have slightly more or slightly less knowledge, which leads to a wholly contingent gridscape."

    Yeah, I'm not buying the gridscape BS because it doesn't describe this universe. We know that there are some things that cannot be known, not by any god. The gridscape assumes a common sense Newtonian physics, which sadly, does not obtain in this universe.
  • Josh
    Neon, your remarks reveal that you don't fully understand the argument. In particular, in S5, the conclusion can be derived even from premises about merely possible worlds.

    Nocterro, if you're curious to look at a purely rational case for fine-tuning one's theistic belief toward Christian theism, see http://www.lydiamcgrew.com/Resurrectionarticlesin...

    Better, in my opinion, to be an honest truth-seeker than to have "faith" without good reason. For this reason, I love the truth-seeking value atheists tend to esteem. I recommend it to fellow theists. Learn from those who have that value; learn from Nocterro.
  • noen
    No Josh, I think I do understand it, I simply disagree with you about S6 which claims that because contingent things can be brought into existence that it therefore follows there *must* exist a Necessary Being. This is bullshit. You use for examples constructing an arm chair and novel species that arise through evolution to try to shoehorn your Necessary Being into existence.

    When I build an arm chair we need look no further than my own free, rational, conscious will to explain where it comes from. When I freely, rationally choose to raise my arm, *I* am it's first cause. Our search is over. However when it comes to novel forms created by the process of natural selection we are no longer talking about things which have been *created* by some conscious entity. The process of natural selection is a blind unthinking mechanism. The species that arise from it are necessary given their initial conditions.

    You have made a category error.
  • Josh
    Lol--never heard of S6 before...
  • Nocterro
    1) You do not know what S5 claims at all. Here is a link I suggest you study in-depth before you call "bullshit": http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-modal/

    2) The example does not say that one builds an armchair, therefore one is the cause of that armchair. Rather, it says that one is the cause of the *property* of "being an armchair" beginning to be exemplified. In the same way, the argument states that a necessary being is the cause of the *property* of "being contingent" beginning to be exemplified.

    3) I am not sure why you bring natural selection into this, as it really has absolutely nothing at all to do with the argument.
  • Dunn
    Colossians 1:13 'Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son.''

    I'm glad that God melted your heart of stone.
  • noen
    1) "I suggest you study in-depth before you call "bullshit"" -- This being "Urban" philosophy and my being formerly homeless and now disabled with time on my hands, "bullshit" is me being polite. I use strong language, don't take it personally. I think that 90% of what is called philosophy is professional bullshit that certain profs employ in order to retain their job security.

    2) I see, another property dualist. The property of being an armchair is not something that has an ontology independent of the humans who created it. It isn't something "out there" waiting around for someone to exemplify it. You have labeled this "property of being an armchair" an intrinsic property that is latent in the cosmos and waiting to be expressed or brought into being through some (presumably human) cause. You then problematise this causal relationship.

    That I call bullshit. It's just essentialism dressed up in academic language and obscured with fancy footwork. Then, once you've made your essentialist assumptions and done some double talk you try to bring in your Necessary Being in order to explain your own essentialist assumptions. This is not allowed.

    Armchairs and tables and dishes do not posses nor exemplify an "intrinsic property" of being useful to humans. They simply happen to be useful to me. I could just as easily use a log, a rock and a piece of bark for the same purpose and nothing new has been created nor has some latent intrinsic property residing within the log, the rock or the bit of bark been "exemplified". But I guess I can publish my meanderings and retain my tenure, so there's that. ;)

    You see, I understood you just fine. You made an analogy, oh sorry, a modal argument, that a Necessary Being is to the property of being contingent as a Carpenter is to the property of being an armchair. Then you wave your arms around and claim that you have *proved* that some Necessary Being must exist. Like I said, this is BS, you have shown no such thing for two reasons. One, as discussed above, your assumptions are in error. Two, all you did was to place these two propositions next to each other and then asserted that one must follow from the other. You fail to explain why this must be the case. All you do is make the leap and then claim it must be so.

    3) Because you made the claim that species posses some mysterious intrinsic property in their being themselves. You gave the example of a fifteen legged animal evolving through natural selection as exemplary of it's intrinsic property of possessing fifteen legs being expressed. You again problematize this new species as something new that has been caused to come into existence and then look around for it's maker. Not finding one you claim there must exist some Necessary Being as it's cause. Oh look! We have one right here! Huh, funny how that works.

    It's a Creationist argument dressed up in academic clothes and paraded around as if it were the legitimate child of academia and not the bastard child of John D. Morris.

    Again, you made a category error when you tried to equate human artifacts with the process of natural selection. The former is the creation of a rational, thinking, language using, speech act performing human being and the latter is the result of an unthinking natural mechanism. You attempt to bring them together and claim that because the one has a creator so must the other. No, I don't think so and even if I were to grant you that armchairs posses an ontological status that needs explaining you did not *show* that because they do therefore there must exist some Necessary Being to explain contingent existence.

    Besides that your physics is bad. I would suggest that you exit the humanities building and take a walk across campus to the sciences buildings and get yourself some real knowledge. (Please remember this is just light hearted ribbing. Don't take it personally. I use it to break up the "deeply serious" pose people take up in these kinds of discussions. This crap isn't that important, people dying of hunger is.)
  • Nocterro
    1) Regardless of any problems you have in your life (mine is far from perfect), you need to be more civil in discussions here. The "Urban" in Urban Philosophy is about taking the subject *out* of academia and into the "streets". You can defend any idea you want to here, but calling others' ideas "bullshit" will not fly.

    2) a- I do not claim it is "latent in the cosmos".
    b- What double talk have I done?
    c- I said the armchair has the property of "being an armchair", not "being useful to humans".
    d- "Two, all you did was to place these two propositions next to each other and then asserted that one must follow from the other." You're claiming this argument is not valid. It appears to be obviously valid to me, even after looking it over carefully many times. So, what conclusion exactly does not follow from the premises?

    3) The example of a fifteen legged animal was only to provide an example of an intrinsic property beginning to be exemplified. Nowhere do I claim that the property of "being fifteen-legged" shows there is a necessary being. However, the property "being contingent" does.

    Furthermore, philosophy is not my only interest; I am quite proficient in science as well, at least compared to the average layman. I agree that "being fifteen-legged" would most likely be caused by natural selection. I am more familiar with several scientific disciplines than I think you give me credit for. So, would you point to where my physics is bad?
  • noen
    I *am* being civil. I positively exemplify the property of being civil. Relax honey, it's all ok.

    "The "Urban" in Urban Philosophy is about taking the subject *out* of academia and into the "streets"."

    So that's why this place is on life support. Yeah, talking down to people, that's really gonna work. Besides, ifen yur a gonna toss 'dem pearls afor us swine, y'all better 'spect some gruntin'.

    "It appears to be obviously valid to me..."

    I'm sure it does. You think that because a free rational conscious being brought the property of being an armchair into existence that therefore a wholly different property, that of contingency, must also have been brought into existence by some other free rational conscious entity. I don't see the connection. In the case of tables and chairs and dishes I can do a full reduction to their constituent atoms in lattice structures. I cannot do the same for the universe, I cannot show that it is really something else. The universe is already what it is.

    Secondly, tables and chairs and dishes don't have an ontology that is independent of humans. If I take a chair and use it as a table by setting my food and drink of the seat, something I've actually done at a crowded wedding reception, does it then lose it's property of being a chair and suddenly acquire a new property of being a table? Or if I drag a log out of the woods to sit next to my campfire, something I have also done, does that log now posses a new property created ex nihilo, that of being a chair? No, don't think so. But..... even if it does, even if the chair and the log have these properties coming into existence and then being destroyed when I leave the campsite or someone sits on my chair-table, any properties they may have are still contingent on my finding them useful to me.

    Seems like a pretty silly way to run a universe to me. Far better to drop the property dualism I should think.

    "Nowhere do I claim that the property of "being fifteen-legged" shows there is a necessary being. However, the property "being contingent" does."

    Contingency is not a property that fifteen-legged animals can have. If they exist at all they exist as brute facts of the world. Contingency is a property that only propositional statements can have. I repeat, you've made a category error. You have confused the properties of statements about the world *for* the world. It is by way of this gap in your understanding that this Necessary Being slips in through the back door so to speak.

    "would you point to where my physics is bad?"

    Your discussion of mass is at best confused. The suggestion that mass is an essential characteristic of all objects (whatever *they* are) that remains invariant under all conditions is false. Then to add to the confusion you throw in weight as an "extrinsic property". Here again you are making the mistake of attributing the properties of statements about things to the things themselves. Weight is defined as the force required to hold an object at rest within a gravitational field. Thus it describes the behavior *of* the object and not a property it possesses (intrinsic or not).

    "I am more familiar with several scientific disciplines than I think you give me credit for."

    It wasn't really personal. I'm just sort of joking around. In person I can do it in such a way that people laugh, but I guess it doesn't translate so well.
  • He is still not professing belief in God. I do not know why it is "nice" to see that he believes that there is a god. All sorts of people believe that for nothing. Even if Jesus rose from the dead it does not establish anything with respect to the sort of god that Nocterro is trying to prove through argument in accordance with his own standards. Finally unbelievers do not actually search for the truth. Rather they have it and hold it down.
  • Yig
    Well, I for one have known Noc for about a year now, and all I have seen from him is disbelief of God. it's nice to see he believes there is one, but I think it will take a bit more convincing for Noc to believe Jesus rose from the dead and is the Son of God. But I must say, Noc is a man of his word, however. I do hope you believe, one day, that Jesus did rise from the dead, Noc, until then keep searching for the truth my friend.
  • I don't know. He certainly will not become a Christian with an argument like that.
  • Why are we talking about Christianity?
  • Jeron
    Presumably the religion most people are most familiar with in these parts. Most can't decouple theism from a religion, I guess.
  • Zblaesi
    Hey, do you guys think Nocterro will become a Muslim? :D
  • Zblaesi
    Honestly, even if Nocterro discovered a decent argument for Christianity, I do not think it would be sufficient for a conversion. Being a Christian involves much more than giving intellectual ascent to a proposition like "Jesus (probably) rose from the dead." I might believe there is a decent chance of rain tomorrow because the weatherman said rain is more probable than not, but that's neither a life-altering belief nor a strong one; for all intents and purposes, I'm indifferent to the belief. Likewise, how is believing that, say, the truth of Christianity has a probability between .5 and 1, with the precise probability being inscrutable, sufficient for true faith - which should involve a change of affection as well as intellect?

    Take, for example, Nocterro's so-called "conversion." What exactly has changed? Nothing really. Nocterro just happens to believe some sort of deity exists. I don't suppose he's anymore excited than when he learned that the earth is round rather than flat.

    I find beliefs peculiar, especially religious ones. Maybe they have their roots in an objective reality, or maybe we're just inclined to believe certain things in general. I especially find it odd that when there are good arguments on both sides, people nonetheless strongly believe one side or the other.
  • Collin H.
    Ever stop to think that those who believe strongly in their side find the arguments for the other side fallacious? ;)
  • Zblaesi
    Of course they might find the other side fallacious, but why? That's the question. Consider this hypothetical case. There is a world with two propositions: a proposition p, and a proposition p1 which entails ~p. Half the population of conscious entities in this world believe p is true because they think their arguments are strong/sound, while the remaining half of the population believe that p1 is true because they think their arguments are strong/sound. Furthermore, both halves of the population believe the other half is utilizing fallacious reasoning - or their side is simply stronger.

    Now, what if it turned out that there is some other conscious entity in this world which knows the truth of the matter. He knows one side is correct, and the other side false. Yet, one of the sides is incorrect for the simplest error - perhaps some sort of fallacy, the falsehood of a premise, or something. Given the cognitive capacity of these other conscious beings, it would not be possible for them to notice this particular flaw in the side which is incorrect. As a result, this knowledgeable entity reasons that when everything is taken into consideration, one side comes out, say, .01 stronger than the other. Only this conscious being knows the truth of the matter, but he also knows that if he were in a lower position, he could go one direction or the other with nearly equal justification.

    In this hypothetical scenario, why exactly does half the population believe one thing and the other half another thing? I don't know. I think there's something more going on here than just the arguments.

    Maybe my reasoning is completely idiotic, but ever since I saw an interview with Peter van Inwagen it got me thinking. If my memory serves me, Peter van Inwagen basically states that the arguments for compatibilism and incompatibilism are equally compelling, and yet he cannot find a fatal flaw with either. So what do philosophers do? They continue believing what seems to them to be true. Perhaps arguments in the philosophy of religion are similar.
  • noen
    People don't believe or disbelieve because of arguments. In fact, people tend to believe in things precisely because they are unlikely or impossible. It's our greatest strength as humans.
  • Bahama
    Now that you "figured" God out, now what?

    Who is He?
    How do you deal with the immoral acts that you have been committing against Him?
    How should He deal with you?

    Nocterro, come and know the Triune God who committed the kindest act any Being can do by coming to this earth to die and suffer for you and rising from the dead, satisfying the wrath for you when you turn from your sins and put the trust of your soul and your life in the hands of His Son...the Mighty King, Humble Servant and Wonderful Friend...Jesus Christ.

    Come and drink from the ever flowing Living Water.

    Isaiah 53
    Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

    2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
    He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

    3 He was despised and rejected by men,
    a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
    Like one from whom men hide their faces
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he took up our infirmities
    and carried our sorrows,
    yet we considered him stricken by God,
    smitten by him, and afflicted.

    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to his own way;
    and the LORD has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.

    8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
    And who can speak of his descendants?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

    10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

    11 After the suffering of his soul,
    he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
    by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.

    12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
    because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
    For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.
  • Nocterro
    I would highly appreciate it if you would offer an argument instead of preaching to me :)
  • I offered a few if you want to do more than preach.
  • Hermes
    (Come to think of it, that covers both "ex materio" and "ex deo" for the KCA.)
  • Hermes
    Re: "ex nihlo"; KCA #1 is an example of this as it states '(1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.'. If it weren't an implicit "ex nihlo", then it could be shortened to just 'Everything that exists has existed'. Yet, that's not what it says. With the addition of time ('begins' & 'cause') there is an implicit 'did not exist prior to the cause' in the KCA #1.
  • Hermes
    Thanks for the link to the previous discussion. I've posted a brutally short and unapologetic note with details there, but that post hasn't been active for a few months. This is my last comment here, then I'll leave you alone.

    I think you underestimate Scott (TBS) or the competency of quite a few amateurs. (Is it his style, or that he's not ugly enough, or not serious enough?)

    That said, well, yes, there are a host of problems with the KAAG. That's intentional, and a point that TBS was annoyed most people commenting on his videos didn't understand and instead took him seriously as a proponent of those flaws.

    What he was identifying wasn't that his argument is wonderful, but that the same problems that exist in his argument also exist in the KCA.

    TBS' point derived from the 1st law remains unaddressed; he's *not* saying 'We bring things ex nihlo into/out of existence'. Quite the opposite. He's saying the implicit 'God brought the universe into existence' is part of the KCA #1. His #1 is there only to identify and highlight that tacit assumption and to point to examples (1st law (and the empirical conclusion there was no 'beginning'), things being made up of the relationship of existing parts, ...) that we agree on and that no example of ex nihlo creation has been demonstrated. To pass the KCA point #1, this has to be shown; they're doing a runaround by assuming their conclusion (c) as a part of their #1.
  • I expect a similar announcement from Mitch within the next week.
  • Hahaha... if I do make a similar announcement I think it will be for different reasons than Nocterro has posted. But, I wouldn't bet any money on my doing so. Or would I?
  • Hermes
    Re: "I did not even make the KCA in this article, so your mention of this seems rather irrelevant."

    I thought it might be interesting as it is somewhat related and did not intend to derail your blog.

    If this is not the type of input that you want -- as this is your blog -- I'll be glad to just go away.
  • Nocterro
    My overall point was not that the KAAG fails in general, but that it fails as a parallel to the KCA. My point 1 was directed at the KAAG premise (1), which causes the entire argument to collapse if it fails. The goal of point 2 was to show that X can begin to exist in the metaphysical sense, even though the substance X is composed of already exists. Point 3 attempts to show that the argument denies its own premise (3), which makes it not a parallel to the KCA. Regarding point 4, well, nothing in the KCA necessitates ex nihilo creation, so even if the KAAG is sound, I don't think it defeats the KCA.

    Re: "If this is not the type of input that you want -- as this is your blog -- I'll be glad to just go away. "

    No, it's fine. I was just confused as to why you left these comments on this particular article, seeing as how it does not mention the KCA. We actually have a more detailed analysis of the KCA here: http://urbanphilosophy.net/philosophy/why-cosmolo... ; perhaps you would be interested in discussing the KCA in greater philosophical detail there.

    Regarding the KAAG once more, at the risk of sounding a bit elitist, I tend to be suspicious of "amateur" arguments. This argument does seem clever upon first glance, however there are a whole host of problems with it beyond the 4 points I made above.
  • Hermes
    Nocterro, I fully agree on your #4 as an out for the theists (specifically Christians and Muslims). But, there's a catch. It still ends up with the Christian or Muslim not offering positive support for the KCA and addressing his #1 in the context of the claims made by the KCA.

    The KCA, though, was the whole point of his counter argument, the Kalam Argument Against God (KAAG). As such, the point that point that both the KCA and the KAAG are flawed is what he was driving at; the two are tied together, with the second showing the absurdity of the KCA's unspoken presuppositions.

    Your #1, 2, and 3 are covered by my previous comments.
  • Nocterro
    There are several problems with TBS's argument. One is that he makes the fallacy of composition - physical objects have properties that the atoms they are composed of do not have; so as per the Identity of Indiscernibles, they are not the same thing.
  • Nocterro
    *should be "Indiscernability of Identicals
  • Nocterro
    *should be "Indiscernability of Identicals
  • Hermes
    Hmmmm.... he covered that. (index 2:45+) In short: As any baker knows, they can't get bread without ingredients. In your comment, the ingredients are the atoms.

    Additionally, TBS also demonstrated what he meant explicitly as well (index 3:40-4:15);

    "... is no less absurd than saying 'Look, I've brought a fist into existence! ... and now look, I've removed the fist from existence.' A fist isn't an entity. It is a specific kind of relationship between my fingers and my palm."

    Did his 'fist' exist? Yes. Is it created ex nihilo? No. Don't mistake a relationship or a concept for a from-nothing creation.

    The proponents of the KCA have to show that his #1 is incorrect by demonstrating it or the KCA is just an assertion of the presupposed conclusion that 'God did it'.
  • Hermes
    Another point to keep in mind when formulating a response to his #1; it's based on the first law of thermodynamics. From Wiki, here are three summaries of the first law;

    * Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms.

    * In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same.

    * For a thermodynamic cycle the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system.

    The answer given to TBS' #1 must take these into account and either be consistent with them, or an exception to the first law must be shown to be valid. I don't know of any exceptions to the first law. Do you?
  • Nocterro
    Ok, here is a verbatim copy of a message I sent to TBS critiquing his argument:

    1) When you speak of causal relationships, I think you are confusing "affecting X" with "making X obtain". These two statements are fundamentally different. I could of course affect a rock - I could smash it, throw it into the air, etc. But I could not make the proposition "rock X exists" obtain. So, I think that causing something to exist is a rather different notion than affecting it in some way.

    2) I think you are mistaken in equating objects with what they are composed of. To say, for example, that "This chair is made of energy, and energy never began to exist, therefore this chair never began to exist" is the modo hoc form of the fallacy of composition. According to Liebniz's Law, X and Y are the same if and only if they have all their properties in common. Of course, a chair has properties that energy does not have, such as "color" and "hardness". So, according to the law of identity, they are not identical.

    3) I will assume that you believe the universe is "made of energy", that is, spacetime itself IS energy; as your only justification for P1 is the example of things being made of energy. Going back to "This chair is made of energy, and energy never began to exist, therefore this chair never began to exist"; even if this is true, if the universe is also made of energy, then the universe never began to exist, and this denies WLC's second premise - the very premise you need to grant in order for the anti-Kalam to work.

    4) It seems that this is not an argument that God did not create the universe, rather it is an argument against "ex nihilo" creation. The theist still has two other options available - "ex materio", that God created the universe from some previously existing material; and "ex deo", that God created the universe from himself.


    Furthermore, I did not even make the KCA in this article, so your mention of this seems rather irrelevant.
  • Right, there are properties which begin to be exemplified in the bread that were not previously exemplified in that which composes the bread.
  • hermes
    Note on the above: The 'Kalam Argument Against God' (KAAG) is flawed -- *intentionally* -- but follows the presuppositions that exist int he KCA. This is used to show the errors in the KCA. If someone insists that the presuppositions from the KCA in support of the KCA are valid, then the KAAG is also valid. This point is covered in TBS's second video.
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