Non-Theistic Objective Morality

Non-Theistic Objective Morality 08/02/10

People often suppose that in the absence of God, there is no objective morality. Why, though, do we presume this to be the case? Can there be objective morality without God?


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The discussion of morality is very common in discussions about religion. Most of the time, the existence of objective morality is used to defend the existence of God. The suggestion is that if there is no God, then there is no objective morality. Rather than challenge this idea, it seems that many atheists have simply accepted it and thereby deny objective morality when they deny the existence of God, as some sort of ‘package deal’. It does not seem clear that a denial of objective morality is coherent, and it also does not seem clear that there cannot be objective morality without the existence of God. In a defense of what Erik J. Wielenberg calls “Non-Natural, Non-Theistic Moral Realism” he attempts to outline what an objective moral system sans God looks like¹. His view holds the following:

  • Objective ethical facts exist
  • Ethical facts are not reducible to natural facts and properties
  • Ethical facts do not require an external foundation

The view, therefore, is compatible with Theism and is not atheistic, but merely (as presented) non-theistic.

In this article, I will attempt to present the system in a simple manner.

Preliminary Definitions

A state of affair is a necessarily existing abstract entity. It can either obtain or fail to obtain. States of affairs which obtain are called facts and some facts are contingently true in that they exist only in some possible world as opposed to those which are necessarily true, and obtain in all. The state of affairs in which Bob is a firefighter is contingent since there are some possible worlds where Bob is not a firefighter. Further, the state of affairs in which Bob is not identical to the number two is a necessary state of affairs: there is no possible world where Bob is identical to the number two.

Many necessary states of affairs are expressed in terms of mathematical truths or trivial propositions such as “All bachelors are married.” Necessary states of affairs do not have to be so trivial, however, since some theists assert that God exists in all possible worlds, that is, God exists necessarily.

Further, there are some states of affairs which obtain because of other states. One example is the state of affairs in which Bob is hurt; this state of affairs being brought about by the fact that Lucy kicked a soccer ball at his head. States of affairs which are not brought about by other states are called brute facts. An example of one possible brute fact is that God exists. Typically, the theist will assert that there is nothing causing, grounding or being a reason for God’s existence – his existence is just a brute fact.

Ethical States of Affairs

Some states of affairs concern matters of ethics, involving notions of moral rightness, wrongness, goodness, evil, etc. Such properties are sui generis properties. That is, they are distinct from both natural, empirically testable properties and supernatural properties (thus, neither naturalism, nor supernaturalism but non-naturalism).

As discussed in a previous article some ethical states of affairs obtain necessarily, such as that it is wrong to torture the innocent for fun and that pain is intrinsically bad. Some other states obtain only contingently, such as that pushing a red button is morally wrong because it will cause Bob some pain. However, there are worlds in which pushing this button would not cause Bob some pain and therefore can only be a contingent fact.

Ethical Facts

That ‘pain is intrinsically bad’ obtains necessarily is evident in that it is not explained by some other state of affairs, it is not entailed but rather it is a brute fact. Ethical facts which are not entailed or explained by some other state of affairs are called basic ethical facts. These basic facts serve as the foundation of all further objective morality and rest on no foundation themselves. Some may be tempted to ask, “where do they come from?” but as Weilenberg notes:

To ask of such facts, “where do they come from?” or “on what foundation do they rest?” is misguided in much the way that, according to many theists, it is misguided to ask of God, “where does He come from?” or “on what foundation does HE rest”? The answer is the same in both cases: They come from nowhere, and nothing external to themselves grounds their existence; rather they are fundamental features of the universe that ground other truths.

Supervenience

The common view of moral properties is that if they are exemplified, they supervene on non-moral properties. That is to say, if there are two possible entities with identical non-moral properties, they will have identical moral properties: rightness supervenes on instances of truth-telling, goodness supervenes on certain character types in a necessary way.

What, then, is the connection between the natural fact that “Lucie is torturing Bob for fun” and the moral fact that it is wrong? Presumably, it is wrong because it is an act of torture, but how do we make sense of this ‘because’? Weilenberg states:

The answer, I think, is that ‘because’ here indicates metaphysical necessity. It is true in all metaphysically possible worlds that causing pain just for fun is wrong. This is the sense in which a given action is wrong because it is [an example of torturing for fun].

Theistic philosopher William Wainwright thinks that such supervenience is more ‘at home’ in a theistic universe than in a non-theistic one:

[T]he connection between the [natural fact] and the [moral property] can seem mysterious. For, in the absence of further explanations, the (necessary connection between these radically different sorts of properties… is just an inexplicable brute fact. (modifications are mine)

Under Weilenberg’s view, the relationships are equivalent to certain basic ethical facts. The claim that the property of “being intrinsically bad” supervenes on the property of pain is equivalent to the claim that necessarily, pain is intrinsically bad. Is such a ‘brute-fact-supervenience’ a problem? Might this supervenience give reason to prefer a theistic account, as Wainwright seems to think?

It seems only to be a problem if non-trivial necessary truths require explanations. But, there seems to be no reason to accept this. Especially for the theist, who posits one non-trivial necessary truth that does not require an explanation: that God exists. It sees that the proposed brute fact of ‘pain is intrinsically bad’ needs no more explanation. It seems, prima facie, to even be in less need of explanation than the existence of a perfect creator.

Perhaps it is true, however, that there is an explanation to God’s existence that is a ‘self-explanation’. Wainwright states that “if we could grasp [God's] nature we would see why it exists.” Wainwright is stating that even if we don’t know the explanation of God’s existence, it is there anyway. If this is true, then the existence of God is not a brute fact after all. Supposing that a self-explanatory being is a coherent notion (there is a lot of literature on this question), it seems that there is still some reliance on brute fact. To suggest that God’s existence is self-explanatory introduces another non-trivial necessary truth: that God’s nature possesses some feature which explains His existence. But, then, what is the explanation for this seemingly brute fact? Even under theism, it seems that one is committed to the coherence of brute fact.

“Mysterious, Floating Values”

Christian philosophers William Lane Craig and J.P Moreland define and criticize this view as follows:

Atheistic moral realists affirm that objective moral values and duties do exist and are not dependent on evolution or human opinion, but they also insist that they are not grounded in God. Indeed, moral values have no further foundation. They just exist.

… It is difficult, however, even to comprehend this view. What does it mean to say, for example, that the moral value justice just exists? It is hard to know what to make of this. I tis clear what is meant when it is said that a person is just; but it is bewildering when it is said that in the absence of any people, justice itself exists. Moral values seem to exist as properties of persons, not as mere abstractions – or at any rate, it is hard to know what it is for a moral value to exist as a mere abstraction. Atheistic moral realists seem to lack any adequate foundation in reality for moral values but just leave them floating in an unintelligible way.

On Weilenberg’s view, among the entities that “just exist” are states of affairs and properties which are accepted to “just exist” by a great number of contemporary philosophers. There are various states of affairs concerning justice, so when some person has the property of being just it is in virtue (partially) of the obtaining of precisely these states of affairs. Weilenberg explains:

For instance, I hold that it is just to give people what they deserve; thus, anyone who gives others what they deserve thereby instantiates the property of justice. The state of affairs that it is just to give people what they deserve obtains whether or not any people actually exist, just as various states of affairs about dinosaurs obtain even though there are no longer any dinosaurs. In this way, my approach cashes out the idea of justice “just existing” in terms of facts about justice. This approach is perfectly intelligible and coherent and no more posits mysterious, floating entities than does any view committed to the existence of properties and states of affairs.

“But You’re Just An Animal!”

A further criticism is that without a Creator, human beings lack moral rights altogether. As Craig states in his debate with Walter Sinnott-Armstrong:

[I]f there is no God, then what’s so special about human beings? They’re just accidental by-products of nature that have evolved relatively recently on an infinitesimal spec of dust lost somewhere in a hostile and mindless universe and that are doomed to perish individually and collectively in a relatively short time. On the atheistic view, some action, say, rape, may not be socially advantageous, and so in the course of human development has become taboo; but that does absolutely nothing to prove that rape is really wrong. On the atheist view, there’s nothing really wrong with your raping someone.

Arguments such as these take the form: If God does not exist, then human beings are just Xs and Xs don’t have moral rights or duties. But this is dubious, just because we may be Xs does not mean that we are nothing more than Xs. That is, human beings are animals, but are we really nothing more than animals? This doesn’t seem any more plausible then the claim that God is a necessarily existing being, and nothing more. It is true, according to theism, that God is necessarily existent but he is more than this, much more. So too, for human beings. We can suffer, love, strive for goals, etc. At any rate, Craig provides no argument for his claim that human beings are just animals, and nothing more.

As for the issue of rape, Sinnott-Armstrong replies, “[w]hat makes rape immoral is that it harms the victim in terrible ways. The victim feels pain, loses freedom, is subordinates, and so on. These harms are not justified by any benefits to anyone.” Essentially, he explains the wrongness of rape by appealing to a moral principle, namely that: any action that involves knowingly inflicting suffering, subordination, and a loss of freedom on another without producing any outweighing benefits is morally wrong. At the very least, we would need to see an argument suggesting that this proposed moral principle fails, but it seems quite plausible.

External Foundation?

Objections of this grade constantly ask for a foundation to be provided and this reveals the assumption that objective morality requires a foundation external to itself. Without any sound argument to suggest that this is true, why should one abandon the view that all non-brute ethical facts rest in part on a set of basic facts which serve as the axioms of morality and do not have an external foundation but are the foundation.

But further, the theist seems to offer nothing better. Craig states that “our moral duties are grounded in the commands of a holy and loving God… His nature expresses itself toward us in the form of moral commands which issuing from the Good, become moral duties for us.” Under this view, our moral duties still rely on some ungrounded ethical fact, namely that if the Good commands you to do something, then you are morally obligated to do it. What is the grounding for this claim? Does it simply “float mysteriously in an unintelligible way?”

Conlusion

At the very least, it is evident that the issue of morality in the absence of God is not as black and white as many people suppose that it is, theists and atheists alike. It has long been supposed that atheism leads to an abandonment of morality, but that doesn’t seem to be the case necessarily. In fact, it seems that a view such as Weilenberg’s is very similar to what the theist requires to escape the Euthyphro dilemma.

______________________________

¹All further quotations are from this paper unless otherwise noted.


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  • noen

    Does this mean you're a property dualist? How do you avoid the charge that moral supervenience is just an epiphenomena of the lower level state of affairs that give rise to it? It seems to me that a causal relationship is missing. How does “Lucie is torturing Bob for fun” cause it to be wrong? I think there needs to be a causal relationship there. Simply placing them next to each other doesn't seem to me to create any kind of necessary connection.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      Well, I do think that moral properties are neither natural facts, nor supernatural facts and that they are sui generis. It's not that the non-moral state of affairs causes the action to be wrong, it's that it is wrong because of the necessary moral truth that torturing for fun is wrong. That is, the 'because' which links the statements can be read as indicating metaphysical necessity. Such that, the state of affairs in which "Lucie is torturing Bob for fun" is wrong because it is a piece of torturing for fun. and instances of torturing for fun are necessarily wrong.

      Mackie's argument from queerness doesn't seem to take into account the possibility of these necessary truths.

      • noen

        Why is torturing for fun wrong? I'm having fun, isn't enjoyment a good thing? What about rape? Maybe my culture says that rape is good. Maybe it says:

        "It's not rape if she is my wife.

        It's not rape if she is my daughter.

        It's not rape if she was drunk.

        It's not rape if my culture mandates intercourse."

        See — The World Capital of Killing — http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/opinion/07krist…

        How do you choose who's cultural values win?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

          Under this view all of those cultures would simply be incorrect, as incorrect as cultures who think that 2+2=4.

          Your question of "why is torturing for fun wrong?" seems to me just as silly as "why does 2+2=4?"

          • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

            But not to them.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            What they personally think is irrelevant to the objective values, of course, just as if there was a society that denied some necessary mathematical truth.

          • noen

            Oh!!!!

            And here I thought you were a Conventionalist when it comes to logic? Or was that merely a convenient rhetorical trope and you switch philosophies to whatever suits you at the time because it's useful in brow beating theists? Because if you are a Conventionalist then there ARE no necessary mathematical truths.

            This is one of my big disagreements with today's atheists. They aren't really interested in the pursuit of philosophical truths, they just want to beat up theists. I think they have unresolved Oedipal issues if you ask me.

            Let your yea be yea. What sayest thou, are there or are there not necessary mathematical truths?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            You are simply incorrect in that under Conventionalism there are no necessary mathematical truths. Also, this exposition of non-theistic objective morality is not atheistic objective morality. It is compatible with a God, and as some theists have recognized, is perhaps the only coherent route to escaping the Euthyphro Dilemma.

          • noen

            I think you are right that arguments for objective morality don't conflict with religion.

            I hadn't heard about Conventionalism until your previous post about it. All I know about it is from the wikipedia page. There it says that Conventionalism is a social agreement and as far as I can see an agreement is contingent, not necessary.

            BTW, my current hero is as I've said John Searle (maybe that'll change when I read someone else, who knows) and he also argues for the existence of objective morality but…. I'm not really sure I understand his position but I think he'd make a slightly different argument. In Searle's philosophy of mind he rejects epiphenomenalism and this argument of yours via Wielenberg reminds me of that. So I *suspect* there would be a parallel counter argument for "objective morality as an epiphenomena of lower level states of affairs". If I understand you correctly.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            The notion of social agreement does create a lot of confusion surrounding Conventionalism. One of our members is working on an article regarding the system that should serve to clear some things up.

          • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

            That is good because I am interested in seeing how conventions are necessary beyond just your say so:

            "You are simply incorrect in that under Conventionalism there are no necessary mathematical truths."

          • noen

            Ahhh… I see. So you are a Eurocentric moral imperialist then? One can prove that 2+2=4 from axioms. As far as I know there is no objective measure by which one can show that one culture's moral code is *objectively* and morally superior to another.

            Nietzsche laughs a hearty laugh.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            I've just outlined a system which explains how there can be 'moral axioms', or moral brute facts. If you are a moral nihilist then we would need to speak about morality further, but the focus of the article is on theistic opponents to non-theistic objective morality since they are already committed to objective moral values.

          • noen

            But your "moral axioms" are culturally relative. It really seems to me that you are just declaring your own (and mine as well) cultural norms as universals. I agree that eating unwanted girl children is very bad but the Inuit didn't think so. Worse, it's hard not to see that Inuit cultural practice as an evolutionary adaptation to their harsh environment. "It's moral because evolution says so" isn't much of an improvement.

            I'm not a Nietzschean, for the time being I tend to go with John Searle on these things. But Nietzsche is useful because he is such a significant moral philosopher. One shouldn't ignore him.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            The moral axiom of, say, pain is intrinsically bad (for example) is certainly not any culturally relative axiom because it is not explained by *any* state of affairs let alone some cultural disposition.

          • noen

            Pain is *intrinsically* bad? You sure? I think pain is morally neutral and can even be a very good thing under many circumstances. People who have no pain receptors have very difficult lives and tend to not live that long. Psychological pain is what motivates people to do things. If all you felt was unending bliss you would never even *move*.

            Besides, when I cooked and ate my baby girl she didn't feel a thing and our tribe needed the protein. Your eurocentric squeamishness over cannibalism is just a cultural bias. It's tough up here at the top of the world and tribes that didn't resort to some things failed to survive. It's hardly unusual, many hunter gatherers practiced infanticide and it really does come down to a matter of survival.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            How does the usefulness or even physical necessity of some X suddenly nullify or increase positively its moral status?

            There are undoubtedly situations in which some morally wrong action is the best action to do, the action does not suddenly become morally good, it's just a tough situation to be in. That is, where I may have to undergo immense pain during surgery, pain is not suddenly a good thing because of the outcome, but rather the outcome or result of the state of affairs may be beneficial with pain as a necessary, yet still bad, factor. So under your examples, while pain might be useful or even required for some good, I do not understand your move from 'useful' to morally good.

            Likewise to your example of the tribe, you said that your tribe 'needed' the protein and that is why you cooked your baby girl. Though that may have been the best, or only option available to you, I still do not see the connection from this fact to its alleged sudden moral goodness.

          • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

            Seems rather odd to ascribe a moral evaluation to pain in and of itself.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            Why do you find it odd Chris?

          • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

            Because it is a sensation or emotion or cognitive state etc. In other cases where such sensations, emotions, or cognitive states are deemed immoral we work from the premise that the subject experiencing such is somehow morally responsible for his or her response. This is certainly not always the case with respect to pain. Imagine, for example, holding a fetus morally responsible for the pain it experiences during a particular type of abortion. Strange indeed.

          • noen

            Ok, I think that's fair enough but it doesn't address cannibalism. I imagine you'd say that tribal cannibalism = bad, Donner party cannibalism = not evil but "a tough situation to be in". But what about willing cannibalism? I freely and rationally agree to allow you to cook and eat me. If two people consent to enter into an agreement for something previously thought immoral is that action still immoral?

            Non silly example: BDSM relationships. The submissive freely enters into a relationship with a Dom. The submissive finds receiving pain pleasurable and the Dom finds giving pain pleasurable. It's win win!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            If the moral laws are truly objective in the manner outlined above then whether or not you permit someone to do something to you has no effect on whether or not that action is moral. What is moral, being objective, can't change under this view.

          • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

            Yes but now you are back to the absurd notion that anyone inflicting pain on someone else, regardless of the results, is doing something immoral. Are doctors or dentists or others in similar positions who have to perform painful procedures to help patients knowingly acting immorally? I doubt many of them reject 2+2=4, but it is not clear that doctors and dentists etc. are immoral people doing bad things.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            It seems to me that a state of affairs can be morally good overall, all things considered, even if it has some wrongmaking properties. I suppose the question we would have to ask ourselves upon the examination of some state of affairs is whether or not the rightmaking properties outweigh the wrongmaking properties.

  • noen

    Does this mean you're a property dualist? How do you avoid the charge that moral supervenience is just an epiphenomena of the lower level state of affairs that give rise to it? It seems to me that a causal relationship is missing. How does “Lucie is torturing Bob for fun” cause it to be wrong? I think there needs to be a causal relationship there. Simply placing them next to each other doesn't seem to me to create any kind of necessary connection.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      Well, I do think that moral properties are neither natural facts, nor supernatural facts and that they are sui generis. It's not that the non-moral state of affairs causes the action to be wrong, it's that it is wrong because of the necessary moral truth that torturing for fun is wrong. That is, the 'because' which links the statements can be read as indicating metaphysical necessity. Such that, the state of affairs in which "Lucie is torturing Bob for fun" is wrong because it is a piece of torturing for fun. and instances of torturing for fun are necessarily wrong.

      Mackie's argument from queerness doesn't seem to take into account the possibility of these necessary truths.

      • noen

        Why is torturing for fun wrong? I'm having fun, isn't enjoyment a good thing? What about rape? Maybe my culture says that rape is good. Maybe it says:

        "It's not rape if she is my wife.

        It's not rape if she is my daughter.

        It's not rape if she was drunk.

        It's not rape if my culture mandates intercourse."

        See — The World Capital of Killing — http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/opinion/07krist…

        How do you choose who's cultural values win?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

          Under this view all of those cultures would simply be incorrect, as incorrect as cultures who think that 2+2=4.

          Your question of "why is torturing for fun wrong?" seems to me just as silly as "why does 2+2=4?"

          • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

            But not to them.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            What they personally think is irrelevant to the objective values, of course, just as if there was a society that denied some necessary mathematical truth.

          • noen

            Oh!!!!

            And here I thought you were a Conventionalist when it comes to logic? Or was that merely a convenient rhetorical trope and you switch philosophies to whatever suits you at the time because it's useful in brow beating theists? Because if you are a Conventionalist then there ARE no necessary mathematical truths.

            This is one of my big disagreements with today's atheists. They aren't really interested in the pursuit of philosophical truths, they just want to beat up theists. I think they have unresolved Oedipal issues if you ask me.

            Let your yea be yea. What sayest thou, are there or are there not necessary mathematical truths?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            You are simply incorrect in that under Conventionalism there are no necessary mathematical truths. Also, this exposition of non-theistic objective morality is not atheistic objective morality. It is compatible with a God, and as some theists have recognized, is perhaps the only coherent route to escaping the Euthyphro Dilemma.

          • noen

            I think you are right that arguments for objective morality don't conflict with religion.

            I hadn't heard about Conventionalism until your previous post about it. All I know about it is from the wikipedia page. There it says that Conventionalism is a social agreement and as far as I can see an agreement is contingent, not necessary.

            BTW, my current hero is as I've said John Searle (maybe that'll change when I read someone else, who knows) and he also argues for the existence of objective morality but…. I'm not really sure I understand his position but I think he'd make a slightly different argument. In Searle's philosophy of mind he rejects epiphenomenalism and this argument of yours via Wielenberg reminds me of that. So I *suspect* there would be a parallel counter argument for "objective morality as an epiphenomena of lower level states of affairs". If I understand you correctly.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            The notion of social agreement does create a lot of confusion surrounding Conventionalism. One of our members is working on an article regarding the system that should serve to clear some things up.

          • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

            That is good because I am interested in seeing how conventions are necessary beyond just your say so:

            "You are simply incorrect in that under Conventionalism there are no necessary mathematical truths."

          • noen

            Ahhh… I see. So you are a Eurocentric moral imperialist then? One can prove that 2+2=4 from axioms. As far as I know there is no objective measure by which one can show that one culture's moral code is *objectively* and morally superior to another.

            Nietzsche laughs a hearty laugh.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            I've just outlined a system which explains how there can be 'moral axioms', or moral brute facts. If you are a moral nihilist then we would need to speak about morality further, but the focus of the article is on theistic opponents to non-theistic objective morality since they are already committed to objective moral values.

          • noen

            But your "moral axioms" are culturally relative. It really seems to me that you are just declaring your own (and mine as well) cultural norms as universals. I agree that eating unwanted girl children is very bad but the Inuit didn't think so. Worse, it's hard not to see that Inuit cultural practice as an evolutionary adaptation to their harsh environment. "It's moral because evolution says so" isn't much of an improvement.

            I'm not a Nietzschean, for the time being I tend to go with John Searle on these things. But Nietzsche is useful because he is such a significant moral philosopher. One shouldn't ignore him.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            The moral axiom of, say, pain is intrinsically bad (for example) is certainly not any culturally relative axiom because it is not explained by *any* state of affairs let alone some cultural disposition.

          • noen

            Pain is *intrinsically* bad? You sure? I think pain is morally neutral and can even be a very good thing under many circumstances. People who have no pain receptors have very difficult lives and tend to not live that long. Psychological pain is what motivates people to do things. If all you felt was unending bliss you would never even *move*.

            Besides, when I cooked and ate my baby girl she didn't feel a thing and our tribe needed the protein. Your eurocentric squeamishness over cannibalism is just a cultural bias. It's tough up here at the top of the world and tribes that didn't resort to some things failed to survive. It's hardly unusual, many hunter gatherers practiced infanticide and it really does come down to a matter of survival.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            How does the usefulness or even physical necessity of some X suddenly nullify or increase positively its moral status?

            There are undoubtedly situations in which some morally wrong action is the best action to do, the action does not suddenly become morally good, it's just a tough situation to be in. That is, where I may have to undergo immense pain during surgery, pain is not suddenly a good thing because of the outcome, but rather the outcome or result of the state of affairs may be beneficial with pain as a necessary, yet still bad, factor. So under your examples, while pain might be useful or even required for some good, I do not understand your move from 'useful' to morally good.

            Likewise to your example of the tribe, you said that your tribe 'needed' the protein and that is why you cooked your baby girl. Though that may have been the best, or only option available to you, I still do not see the connection from this fact to its alleged sudden moral goodness.

          • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

            Seems rather odd to ascribe a moral evaluation to pain in and of itself.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            Why do you find it odd Chris?

          • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

            Because it is a sensation or emotion or cognitive state etc. In other cases where such sensations, emotions, or cognitive states are deemed immoral we work from the premise that the subject experiencing such is somehow morally responsible for his or her response. This is certainly not always the case with respect to pain. Imagine, for example, holding a fetus morally responsible for the pain it experiences during a particular type of abortion. Strange indeed.

          • noen

            Ok, I think that's fair enough but it doesn't address cannibalism. I imagine you'd say that tribal cannibalism = bad, Donner party cannibalism = not evil but "a tough situation to be in". But what about willing cannibalism? I freely and rationally agree to allow you to cook and eat me. If two people consent to enter into an agreement for something previously thought immoral is that action still immoral?

            Non silly example: BDSM relationships. The submissive freely enters into a relationship with a Dom. The submissive finds receiving pain pleasurable and the Dom finds giving pain pleasurable. It's win win!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            If the moral laws are truly objective in the manner outlined above then whether or not you permit someone to do something to you has no effect on whether or not that action is moral. What is moral, being objective, can't change under this view.

          • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

            Yes but now you are back to the absurd notion that anyone inflicting pain on someone else, regardless of the results, is doing something immoral. Are doctors or dentists or others in similar positions who have to perform painful procedures to help patients knowingly acting immorally? I doubt many of them reject 2+2=4, but it is not clear that doctors and dentists etc. are immoral people doing bad things.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

            It seems to me that a state of affairs can be morally good overall, all things considered, even if it has some wrongmaking properties. I suppose the question we would have to ask ourselves upon the examination of some state of affairs is whether or not the rightmaking properties outweigh the wrongmaking properties.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    Or take fatigue as another example. Is being tired a moral evil? Perhaps the person should not have stayed up all night and thus is at least partially responsible for the consequences, but I do not see how it follows that fatigue in and of itself is morally wrong.

    Of course, just because I find something strange does not mean that it is not the case, but you asked why I find this strange. In what sense is pain either moral or immoral? Are you sure that you are not equivocating on "bad"? I can see that (for example) inflicting pain may be deemed immoral, though such a claim would be easy to counter.

    Anyway, calling pain morally bad and claiming that this is some axiomatic truth appears to me to be a cop-out.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      That pain is intrinsically bad is an ethical fact, and no fetus would be held morally responsible because it feels pain during an abortion. It seems obvious to me that one needs to consider the notions of moral agency. That pain is intrinsically bad does not entail that one is morally culpable for being subject to that bad state of affairs, but rather this ethical axiom lays the foundation for moral propositions such as: one should not cause pain to another. Why? Because, pain is intrinsically bad. That is to say, that pain is intrinsically bad is not a moral fact, it is an ethical fact. I apologize if I did not make this clear, but it is not prescriptive in nature. Yet, it is not explained by any other fact, hence its status as an ethical axiom.

      Ah, I see above that I did refer to it as a 'moral' axiom which might have leant to the conclusion. What I meant by this is that it is a foundation for moral claims, but not a moral claim in itself.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    Or take fatigue as another example. Is being tired a moral evil? Perhaps the person should not have stayed up all night and thus is at least partially responsible for the consequences, but I do not see how it follows that fatigue in and of itself is morally wrong.

    Of course, just because I find something strange does not mean that it is not the case, but you asked why I find this strange. In what sense is pain either moral or immoral? Are you sure that you are not equivocating on "bad"? I can see that (for example) inflicting pain may be deemed immoral, though such a claim would be easy to counter.

    Anyway, calling pain morally bad and claiming that this is some axiomatic truth appears to me to be a cop-out.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      That pain is intrinsically bad is an ethical fact, and no fetus would be held morally responsible because it feels pain during an abortion. It seems obvious to me that one needs to consider the notions of moral agency. That pain is intrinsically bad does not entail that one is morally culpable for being subject to that bad state of affairs, but rather this ethical axiom lays the foundation for moral propositions such as: one should not cause pain to another. Why? Because, pain is intrinsically bad. That is to say, that pain is intrinsically bad is not a moral fact, it is an ethical fact. I apologize if I did not make this clear, but it is not prescriptive in nature. Yet, it is not explained by any other fact, hence its status as an ethical axiom.

      Ah, I see above that I did refer to it as a 'moral' axiom which might have leant to the conclusion. What I meant by this is that it is a foundation for moral claims, but not a moral claim in itself.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    It takes a lot of faith for me to believe you on that because you were given every opportunity to correct yourself before. You spoke of the moral status of pain and I even mentioned that it seems rather odd to ascribe a moral evaluation to pain in and of itself. It is okay to admit you may have been wrong, you know. :)

    But regardless, I do not see how changing "moral" to "ethical" helps matters much. In what way is pain intrinsically ethically bad? Would you say that some action is morally good insofar as it results in pleasure and bad insofar as it results in pain? I suppose I am still not following.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      I did make a mistake in responding. 'Pain is intrinsically bad' is an ethical axiom that grounds the moral truth of, say, torturing Bob for fun is wrong. It wouldn't entail that one is morally culpable for the experience of pain, rather since we're speaking of morality it seems clear to me that we are talking about the 'action' while taking into consideration the issues of moral agency. We need to differentiate between the state of 'being' and the state of 'causing' since in matters of moral agency, the 'causing' is the one that applies.

      In response to your second question, I'd like to quote T.J Mawson from 'The Euthyphro Dilemma' in Think: Winter 2008 p.27:

      "Wherever there is agonizing pain, whether in people or animals, it cannot – of logical necessity – be anything other than
      bad. We wouldn’t call it ‘agonizing pain’ if it wasn’t bad."

      The intrinsic badness of pain is contained within the concept of pain. If the ethical truth were explained by anything other, it could not be an axiom.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    It takes a lot of faith for me to believe you on that because you were given every opportunity to correct yourself before. You spoke of the moral status of pain and I even mentioned that it seems rather odd to ascribe a moral evaluation to pain in and of itself. It is okay to admit you may have been wrong, you know. :)

    But regardless, I do not see how changing "moral" to "ethical" helps matters much. In what way is pain intrinsically ethically bad? Would you say that some action is morally good insofar as it results in pleasure and bad insofar as it results in pain? I suppose I am still not following.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      I did make a mistake in responding. 'Pain is intrinsically bad' is an ethical axiom that grounds the moral truth of, say, torturing Bob for fun is wrong. It wouldn't entail that one is morally culpable for the experience of pain, rather since we're speaking of morality it seems clear to me that we are talking about the 'action' while taking into consideration the issues of moral agency. We need to differentiate between the state of 'being' and the state of 'causing' since in matters of moral agency, the 'causing' is the one that applies.

      In response to your second question, I'd like to quote T.J Mawson from 'The Euthyphro Dilemma' in Think: Winter 2008 p.27:

      "Wherever there is agonizing pain, whether in people or animals, it cannot – of logical necessity – be anything other than
      bad. We wouldn’t call it ‘agonizing pain’ if it wasn’t bad."

      The intrinsic badness of pain is contained within the concept of pain. If the ethical truth were explained by anything other, it could not be an axiom.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    The badness of pain is axiomatic, existence is axiomatic, God is axiomatic, logic is axiomatic, math is axiomatic…

    I am starting to smell something everywhere I go. ;)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      Do you disagree? You're committed to at least three of these claims, are you not?

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    The badness of pain is axiomatic, existence is axiomatic, God is axiomatic, logic is axiomatic, math is axiomatic…

    I am starting to smell something everywhere I go. ;)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/MitchLeBlanc MitchLeBlanc

      Do you disagree? You're committed to at least three of these claims, are you not?

  • cf

    pain is intrinsically bad, is perhaps a poor example? Are there not many circumstance in which pain is:
    a) necessary for the well being of my self or others ( surgery , the pain of self denial?)
    b) good in that by choosing pain over pleasure I am given the importunity to do greater good then the opposite choice? Being killed to defend some just cause would be an example.

  • c f

    mitch – how do you respond to the Christian claim that suffering is morally good?
    you say 'pain is somehow ethically bad' , but it seems that the only way one can accept your statement is by a pure act of faith of a much greater magnitude than that required of Christians when they accept the 'suffering servant' as an embodiment of the entity which created the universe.

    It is at least possible to make a reasoned argument for Christian faith, most individuals can given an accounting from both objective science and personal experience for why they believe.

    What you are asking is for people to accept a statement 'pain is bad' with much greater faith than is necessary to believe in God, because the is neither scientific data or personal experience to validate such a claim.

    I would suggest that the opposite is even true. From a scientific perspective pain is at worse neutral and probably a useful survival mechanism.

    I have yet to meet a woman who believed the pain she suffered when bearing her child was not 'the good type' of pain. A sensation that was 'worth it'.

    If by bad you mean 'pain hurts' I can see how that as self evident , and also self evident is that all organisms avoid being hurt when it servers there survival. Equally objectively provable is that many organisms have instincts and reflexes that overcome the natural predilection to avoid being hurt because a greater survival need ( aka procreation , pack instinct, etc. is of greater use then the damage inflicted to the individual organism.)

    Still that seems like a HUGE leap to suggest that the pain of a jelly fish is someone a moral evil?

  • cf

    pain is intrinsically bad, is perhaps a poor example? Are there not many circumstance in which pain is:
    a) necessary for the well being of my self or others ( surgery , the pain of self denial?)
    b) good in that by choosing pain over pleasure I am given the importunity to do greater good then the opposite choice? Being killed to defend some just cause would be an example.

  • c f

    mitch – how do you respond to the Christian claim that suffering is morally good?
    you say 'pain is somehow ethically bad' , but it seems that the only way one can accept your statement is by a pure act of faith of a much greater magnitude than that required of Christians when they accept the 'suffering servant' as an embodiment of the entity which created the universe.

    It is at least possible to make a reasoned argument for Christian faith, most individuals can given an accounting from both objective science and personal experience for why they believe.

    What you are asking is for people to accept a statement 'pain is bad' with much greater faith than is necessary to believe in God, because the is neither scientific data or personal experience to validate such a claim.

    I would suggest that the opposite is even true. From a scientific perspective pain is at worse neutral and probably a useful survival mechanism.

    I have yet to meet a woman who believed the pain she suffered when bearing her child was not 'the good type' of pain. A sensation that was 'worth it'.

    If by bad you mean 'pain hurts' I can see how that as self evident , and also self evident is that all organisms avoid being hurt when it servers there survival. Equally objectively provable is that many organisms have instincts and reflexes that overcome the natural predilection to avoid being hurt because a greater survival need ( aka procreation , pack instinct, etc. is of greater use then the damage inflicted to the individual organism.)

    Still that seems like a HUGE leap to suggest that the pain of a jelly fish is someone a moral evil?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_73XGS6PWQQKBC2SRY3UQHWB4OQ Justin G

    The description of objective morality seems incomplete without God. This is because unlike the laws of physics, we’re not bound to obey an objective morality like we are the law of gravity. If there are no ultimate consequences for violating non-theistic objective morality, then stating that something is objectively wrong makes no sense. I think Kant supported this view from a practical standpoint. The only practical way that an objective morality can exist is if justice is included – an ultimate consequence for the sumation of one’s actions in this life (seeing as how there may not be any justice to be found for many in this life).

    Without justice, which now seems to require an afterlife for many, and without a system to mete out this justice, there simply cannot be an objective morality. You can scream all you like that Stalin is morally “wrong” and without justice, it’s just your subjective opinion. You may as well just state “I disapprove of Stalin’s actions”.

    Further, if morality is objective, then it is necessarily existent prior to man, it is necessarily unchanging, and it necessarily has to have a source that is personal. Morality only applies to very high life forms. We don’t say that a bull is wrong when it “rapes” a cow. Why? Because cows, birds, fishes, and rocks aren’t capable of contemplating consent. Nor do cows get upset if bulls have multiple partners. The source of morality would have to be something loosely akin to a higher intelligence. We don’t accuse a rock of murder if it falls and kills someone. The materialistic worldview simply cannot put forth an objective morality that ultimately holds any meaning.

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