To Payton on Homosexuality

To Payton on Homosexuality 12/04/10

A rejoinder to Payton's points on homosexuality and Timothy 1:9-10


Authored by: .


In my response I intend on pointing out several errors that Payton has made in his article, and providing some helpful insight on the teachings of the Bible concerning homosexuality.

Has homosexuality always been seen as sinful to Christians?

“I hope to take steps towards correcting the peculiar view, which has become almost universal among Christians in recent decades…”

The case that Payton and B.A. Robinson make is that post-KJV Bible translations like the NIV, ESV, and NASB have mistranslated 1 Timothy 1:9-10.  From that Payton concludes that the verse in question has never been seen as condemning homosexuality prior to the first time arsenokoites was translated as pertaining to homosexuality specifically.  While homosexuality isn’t the only sin that the Apostle Paul is listing in the verse, it most certainly does refer to homosexuality, thereby showing that it has always been seen as a sin.  Rather, the movement that Payton is supporting has proposed interpretations of scripture that are only about 50 years old (generous estimate) if he can provide any older ones, I’ll give him that point.  While I will agree with him that neither Calvin nor Luther saw this verse as pertaining to homosexuality in particular, they did both see that the Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin.

Is it right to argue that translator’s prejudice guide their textual reasoning?

“Such a position cannot be taken on any logical basis, but must instead be the result of a kind of prejudice born from a misguided attempt at intuitivist morality.”

Unfortunately in Payton’s article there are no references to New Testament scholars who support the translation of arsenokoites meaning homosexuality.   This would have been very helpful to the reader as to seeing the rationale behind the translation, and then critiquing that. Instead what we are given is an assertion that the translation was guided by prejudice rather than textual reasons. That is a serious charge and even slanderous.  At best the assertion that prejudice rather than textual reasoning guided the translation is wholly an assumption that cannot be proven unless the translators admit such a prejudice.  Therefore it isn’t a wise remark in this debate, as it is an attack on the translator’s character rather than their reasoning of the issue.

What is the rationale for translating arsenokoites as pertaining to homosexuality?

“It is a compound word, formed from two well-known and well-precedented words; “arsen“, meaning “male”, and “koitai“, meaning “beds”. We might suspect, then, that Paul is not writing about “them that defile themselves with mankind”.”

We must first look at the word arsenokoites and it’s origins.  As Payton rightly pointed out the word is a compound word, and Paul is attributed to it’s first occurrences in Greek literature.  Payton neglects to mention the theories behind Paul’s reasoning for making this word, most notably that Paul derived this word from two Old Testament passages from the Septuagint Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.  I will refer to a brief description of the view by Brian J. Dodd (LXX):

Robin Scroggs has plausibly suggested that Paul created this new word by combining the two terms found in the Greek version of Lev 18:23 (LXX 18:22) and 20:13: arsen = “male,” and koite = “bed,” which translate the Hebrew for “lying with a male” (mishkav zakur; The New Testament and Homosexuality: Contextual Background for Contemporary Debate [Fortress, 1983] 106-8). With the likelihood that these Levitical prohibitions are echoed in 1 Cor 6:9, the NRSV is justified in translating the term as a reference to homoerotic intercourse, even if the English “sodomites” is somewhat archaic.

To be specific, the textual argument that arsenokoites refers explicitly to homosexuality, and that understanding was Paul’s intention in creating the word goes as follows:

  1. “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”- Leviticus 18:21
  2. “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” -Leviticus 20:13

The above two verses communicate the same message which is explicitly forbidding homosexual practice.  The italicized portions are very important with the formulation ofarsenokoites in Paul’s understanding.  Let us now walk through the Septuagint from which Paul pulled arsenos and koites, again, the key terms are italicized:

  1. “meta arsenos ou koimethese koiten gyniakos” – Leviticus 18:22 (LXX)
  2. “hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gyniakos” – Leviticus 20:13 (LXX)

Arsenoskoites (males combined with bed or couch) is a Greek counterpart to the Hebrew phrase “mishkab zakur” which is used in the above verses in the original Hebrew form.

  1. Mishkab is Hebrew for arsenos, which is Greek for bed or couch.
  2. Zakur is Hebrew for koiten, which is Greek for male or males.
  3. Mishkab zakur is used where sex between men is expressly forbidden.
  4. Therefore, mishkab zakur is translated into Greek as arsenokoite, and used by Paul to reflect Leviticus 18:22, 20:13. Paul did this in order to call to the attention of the Greek readers that homosexuality is a sin, just as Leviticus says.

Paul condemns what Leviticus condemns.  This is also why Paul didn’t use words that already existed for the term homosexual. So it is not “abundantly clear that Paul is not referring to homosexuality here.” This also makes Justin Cannon’s study start off on the wrong foot, as he doesn’t make the connection between arsenokoites and the verses in Leviticus, which left Justin thinking the word must mean prostitutes.  Which is an unneeded substitute for a reference to the Old Testament law forbidding homosexuality.  I’m also very surprised that Cannon didn’t address the only two times that koite is used in the New Testament.  As both usages have a sexual connotation.

  1. “Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality [koite] and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.” -Romans 13:13
  2. “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed [koite] be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.” -Hebrews 13:4

As you can see, it isn’t unusual for koite to be used as referring to sexual intercourse, leading the argument to stand that arsenos (male/males) and koite (bed or couch with a sexual connotation) combined explicitly means men having intercourse together.

This makes Justin’s conclusion that arsenokoites can only refer to prostitutes nearly laughable.  Arsenokoites being a combination of male and bed has no room to imply trade, buying, or selling.  Homosexuality in all forms is condemned as a sin.

With all of that said, I think the biggest issue in Payton’s work is that it begins by assuming bad motives in the work of the translators of the newer versions.  The picture that he painted is that Christian history has had it all wrong.  This conflict would not happen if the arguments for the translation of arsenokoites were actually reviewed prior to writing a confident bashing of the modern translators/translations.

In conclusion, we can see that the recent inventions of pro-gay theologians are exactly that, recent inventions.  It is also odd that the verse in question was argued against as a linchpin of the entire debate that rages between pro-gay theologians and orthodox theologians.  While this verse is extremely important (as all verses are) the Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is in fact unnatural, and sinful.  To pick the verses that make this clear and crunch them and ignore the history of translation is an abuse of the scriptures that no apologist should allow.  No Greek Lexicon disagrees with the translations we have today, but even such a well-known resource is completely ignored.  The Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon defines arsenokoite as “a male who practices homosexuality, pedarist, sodomite” and quotes Romans 1:27 as an example.  Strong’s Concordance translates arsenokoites as “a sodomite:–abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.” in obvious reference to Sodom.  This makes the case that pro-gay theologians try to make seem to be nothing more than conspiracy theories making allegations of discrimination and prejudice about those who have translated our Bible versions.

A brief statement on how Christians should see, and treat homosexuals

Christians are to treat homosexuals the exact same way they treat everybody else.  Homosexuality isn’t a worse sin than any other, but it is much harder to overcome than any other as far as sin patterns and lifestyles go.  Paul’s message in this passage is very clear, and convicting to every Christian.  Certainly there are men and women who have homosexual leanings that have come to Christ and began to repent.  There are ministries out there who can provide the testimonies.  One in particular I will reference is that of Joe Dallas, as he has a truly incredible story of his battle with homosexuality.

The Big Issue

Finally, the big issue is who is handling the text rightly?  It is one thing to just reject Christianity because of it’s views on homosexuality (as many homosexual advocates do.)  It is an entirely different issue to try to squeeze the Bible into promoting homosexuality bad interpretations/exegesis of the Bible.  There is a tremendous amount of work on this issue, and below I will link some that I find to be most trustworthy.  Perhaps you will find it refreshing that not all of the following links are in agreement with each other on all theological issues.


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  • http://www.aomin.org/ Machen

    Not sitting well with this sentence: "Homosexuality isn’t a worse sin than any other, but it is much harder to overcome than any other as far as sin patterns and lifestyles go."

    Revision:

    "Homosexuality isn’t a worse sin than any other, but it is much harder to overcome than many* others* as far as sin patterns and lifestyles go."

  • http://www.aomin.org Machen

    Not sitting well with this sentence: "Homosexuality isn’t a worse sin than any other, but it is much harder to overcome than any other as far as sin patterns and lifestyles go."

    Revision:

    "Homosexuality isn’t a worse sin than any other, but it is much harder to overcome than many* others* as far as sin patterns and lifestyles go."

  • http://www.aomin.org/ Machen

    Ah! A link error on the link that reads: Homosexuality: A Biblical Perspective
    http://www.biblebb.com/files/HOMOSEX2.HTM <———–correct link

  • http://www.aomin.org Machen

    Ah! A link error on the link that reads: Homosexuality: A Biblical Perspective
    http://www.biblebb.com/files/HOMOSEX2.HTM <———–correct link

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

    I very much appreciate the time it must have taken to write this response! Thank you!

    I'm also grateful to have read it in such a setting, where I'm not being confronted with some argument I've never seen before in a live debate. This truly is a strong case you're making, although I am prepared to defend mine. I have this kind of objection covered in my analysis of Leviticus, and perhaps, now that you've brought it up, I should post it up first instead of my essay on Corinthians.

    I want to make a couple points clear, though I will save my rebuttals for my next article:

    When I spoke of prejudicial beliefs, I was talking about intuitivist morality. I mentioned that, although perhaps I could have been clearer. I was not talking about scholars or translators of the text, nor was I saying any translation was arrived at by prejudice and not logic. I spoke not of any translations, or of the Bible at all, in that case. I was railing against the popular Christianity believed by modern Americans who will never read the Bible, or know anything about these six "clobber passages" I'm analyzing. I was talking about the neighbor kid across the street from me. The girls I met at summer camp. the boy scouts at my church. My parents. Some of my classmates, etc. They go with their gut, (their heterosexual gut) and since they feel like homosexuality is the grossest thing ever, they dismiss me out of hand when I say that the Bible doesn't condemn it. Often times, I get an answer like, "So what if the Bible never says anything about it? Duh, it's still wrong!"

    That is what I was talking about. So, what you call your 'biggest issue' with my article is simply a misunderstanding. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the honest intellectuals and scholars who have come down on your side in this issue. I was not dismissing them.

    Quite the contrary, I was affirming their efforts. This dialogue cannot be dismissed on intuition and prejudice alone, much as I would love to do. No, it is a debate worth having. And that is what my introduction was all about.

    • http://www.aomin.org/ Machen

      Cool, I may not be able to respond to your further posts, you just happened to write this one while I had some time off from school. If time finds me, I may be able to respond to your further posts. I look forward to reading them.

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

    I very much appreciate the time it must have taken to write this response! Thank you!

    I'm also grateful to have read it in such a setting, where I'm not being confronted with some argument I've never seen before in a live debate. This truly is a strong case you're making, although I am prepared to defend mine. I have this kind of objection covered in my analysis of Leviticus, and perhaps, now that you've brought it up, I should post it up first instead of my essay on Corinthians.

    I want to make a couple points clear, though I will save my rebuttals for my next article:

    When I spoke of prejudicial beliefs, I was talking about intuitivist morality. I mentioned that, although perhaps I could have been clearer. I was not talking about scholars or translators of the text, nor was I saying any translation was arrived at by prejudice and not logic. I spoke not of any translations, or of the Bible at all, in that case. I was railing against the popular Christianity believed by modern Americans who will never read the Bible, or know anything about these six "clobber passages" I'm analyzing. I was talking about the neighbor kid across the street from me. The girls I met at summer camp. the boy scouts at my church. My parents. Some of my classmates, etc. They go with their gut, (their heterosexual gut) and since they feel like homosexuality is the grossest thing ever, they dismiss me out of hand when I say that the Bible doesn't condemn it. Often times, I get an answer like, "So what if the Bible never says anything about it? Duh, it's still wrong!"

    That is what I was talking about. So, what you call your 'biggest issue' with my article is simply a misunderstanding. I agree with you wholeheartedly about the honest intellectuals and scholars who have come down on your side in this issue. I was not dismissing them.

    Quite the contrary, I was affirming their efforts. This dialogue cannot be dismissed on intuition and prejudice alone, much as I would love to do. No, it is a debate worth having. And that is what my introduction was all about.

    • http://www.aomin.org Machen

      Cool, I may not be able to respond to your further posts, you just happened to write this one while I had some time off from school. If time finds me, I may be able to respond to your further posts. I look forward to reading them.

  • noen

    Arsenokoites was never used in antiquity with our modern meaning of homosexual. http://www.gaychristian101.com/Arsenokoites.html

    "The modern tendency which assumes arsenokoites must mean homosexual, ignores historic usage of the word. The modern assumption is based on the wishful thinking of antigay Christians, not actual usage of arsenokoites in antiquity.

    The fact that arsenokoites was never used in ancient times, to refer to male equals in homosexual partnership, provides a powerful clue that arsenokoites does not mean homosexual. "

    —-

    What is the rationale for translating Ladykiller as pertaining to a serial murderer?

    It is a compound word, formed from two well-known and well-precedented words; “lady“, meaning “female”, and “killer“, meaning “murderer”. We might suspect, then, that Paul IS writing about “them that serially murder women.

    Language is a funny thing. Only fools and Fundamentalists take words literally.

  • noen

    Arsenokoites was never used in antiquity with our modern meaning of homosexual. http://www.gaychristian101.com/Arsenokoites.html

    "The modern tendency which assumes arsenokoites must mean homosexual, ignores historic usage of the word. The modern assumption is based on the wishful thinking of antigay Christians, not actual usage of arsenokoites in antiquity.

    The fact that arsenokoites was never used in ancient times, to refer to male equals in homosexual partnership, provides a powerful clue that arsenokoites does not mean homosexual. "

    —-

    What is the rationale for translating Ladykiller as pertaining to a serial murderer?

    It is a compound word, formed from two well-known and well-precedented words; “lady“, meaning “female”, and “killer“, meaning “murderer”. We might suspect, then, that Paul IS writing about “them that serially murder women.

    Language is a funny thing. Only fools and Fundamentalists take words literally.

  • http://www.aomin.org/ Machen

    Noen: thanks for the insultes

    Arsenokoites’ meaning is derived from the context in which Paul uses it. Please argue against what I wrote.

    If what you are saying is really legit, then ask every Greek lexicon producer to remove their definitions instead of questioning their motives.

    I provided a textual argument for why arsenoikoite refers to homosexuality, you just provided an argument against it with no textual basis.

  • http://www.aomin.org Machen

    Noen: thanks for the insultes

    Arsenokoites’ meaning is derived from the context in which Paul uses it. Please argue against what I wrote.

    If what you are saying is really legit, then ask every Greek lexicon producer to remove their definitions instead of questioning their motives.

    I provided a textual argument for why arsenoikoite refers to homosexuality, you just provided an argument against it with no textual basis.

  • noen

    "Conclusion: None of the citations given in Greek lexicons to support arsenokoites having our modern meaning of homosexual, use the word with that meaning.

    Arsenokoites and arsenokoitia were never used exclusively to refer to homosexuals. In 56 usages during the six hundred years after Paul first used the word, arsenokoites never refers to male equals in committed, faithful, homosexual partnership.

    Deconstructing a word to obtain the meaning of its parts, and then assuming that the meaning of the parts equals the meaning of the whole, leads to linguistic error.

    Defining arsenokoites based on the meaning of arseno and koite tells us nothing about the meaning as Paul and his readers understood it.

    The common error, found even in Greek lexicons, that arsenokoites means “homosexual men who have sex with men” may explain the etymology of arseno and koites but does not explain their meaning when they form one word. "
    http://www.gaychristian101.com/Arsenokoites.html

  • noen

    "Conclusion: None of the citations given in Greek lexicons to support arsenokoites having our modern meaning of homosexual, use the word with that meaning.

    Arsenokoites and arsenokoitia were never used exclusively to refer to homosexuals. In 56 usages during the six hundred years after Paul first used the word, arsenokoites never refers to male equals in committed, faithful, homosexual partnership.

    Deconstructing a word to obtain the meaning of its parts, and then assuming that the meaning of the parts equals the meaning of the whole, leads to linguistic error.

    Defining arsenokoites based on the meaning of arseno and koite tells us nothing about the meaning as Paul and his readers understood it.

    The common error, found even in Greek lexicons, that arsenokoites means “homosexual men who have sex with men” may explain the etymology of arseno and koites but does not explain their meaning when they form one word. "
    http://www.gaychristian101.com/Arsenokoites.html

  • Zach Blaesi

    We need to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual behavior. Just as it is possible to be a heterosexual without engaging in sexual activities with people of the opposite sex, it is possible to be a homosexual without engaging in sexual activities with people of the same sex. If anything, Paul condemns homosexual behavior rather than the disposition. In other words, claiming that the modern concept of homosexuality is absent from the New Testament does nothing to refute the claim that homosexual behavior is considered sinful in the Bible. On the other hand, the claim that the concept of homosexuality is absent from the New Testament context could be false itself; Plato seemed to be aware of homosexual monogamy, for instance.

  • Zach Blaesi

    We need to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual behavior. Just as it is possible to be a heterosexual without engaging in sexual activities with people of the opposite sex, it is possible to be a homosexual without engaging in sexual activities with people of the same sex. If anything, Paul condemns homosexual behavior rather than the disposition. In other words, claiming that the modern concept of homosexuality is absent from the New Testament does nothing to refute the claim that homosexual behavior is considered sinful in the Bible. On the other hand, the claim that the concept of homosexuality is absent from the New Testament context could be false itself; Plato seemed to be aware of homosexual monogamy, for instance.

  • http://www.highschoolapolgetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

    See, we are arguing that Paul did not condemn the behavior or practice either. Noen is saying that the behavior is not found in the Bible either.

    • noen

      Paul condemned the practice of temple prostitution which is certainly homosexual behavior. We really don't know what he would have thought of two gay men ow women in a committed relationship because that is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

      * Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
      * The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
      * Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way — and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

      Do you also agree with these Biblical commands?

      * DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
      If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
      * DEUTERONOMY 22:22
      If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
      * MARK 10:1-12
      Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
      * LEVITICUS 18:19
      The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
      * MARK 12:18-27
      If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
      * DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
      If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
      http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bi…

      • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

        Well, you know what I meant

  • http://www.highschoolapolgetics.wordpress.com Payton

    See, we are arguing that Paul did not condemn the behavior or practice either. Noen is saying that the behavior is not found in the Bible either.

    • noen

      Paul condemned the practice of temple prostitution which is certainly homosexual behavior. We really don't know what he would have thought of two gay men ow women in a committed relationship because that is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

      * Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
      * The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
      * Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way — and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

      Do you also agree with these Biblical commands?

      * DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
      If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
      * DEUTERONOMY 22:22
      If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
      * MARK 10:1-12
      Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
      * LEVITICUS 18:19
      The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
      * MARK 12:18-27
      If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
      * DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
      If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
      http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bi…

      • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

        Well, you know what I meant

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    noen is probably just guessing.http://www.choosinghats.com/?p=1042

    ;)

    Looking forward to reading through this when I get back. It is odd to me that those arguing that homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible rarely appear to have read the best Christian responses on the subject. It is also odd to me that non-Christians who reject the Bible would even care.

    • noen

      I'm not a he.

      "It is odd to me that those arguing that homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible rarely appear to have read the best Christian responses on the subject."

      It doesn't really interest me that much. I'm agnostic and don't care what the Bible has to say about it. All I did was to do a quick google search to easily find some counter examples. The arguments at the pages I linked to seem pretty good to me and they provided a counter point to Payton's claims. I would expect that someone reading the discussion would then read them and come to their own conclusions.

      • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

        Do you mean a counter point to Machen's claims? He wrote this article.

        If you haven't supported them with your comments, you certainly haven't contradicted my claims :P

        • noen

          Well, you appear to be defending it also. "you certainly haven't contradicted my claims" — Since you are now distancing yourself from Machen perhaps you should clarify what your claims are.

          To be perfectly honest I'm not terribly interested in debating religion. I come here because it is *somewhat* sane compared to the rest of the blogoverse and I think the site has potential. Maybe sometime I'll write about what I'm interested in if I get the time and motivation.

          • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

            I'm not defending it. Didn't you read my article? Machen wrote this article as a response to mine; in an attempt to refute my claims.

            My views are already clarified. Read my article. There's a link at the top of this one. :)

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    noen is probably just guessing.http://www.choosinghats.com/?p=1042

    ;)

    Looking forward to reading through this when I get back. It is odd to me that those arguing that homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible rarely appear to have read the best Christian responses on the subject. It is also odd to me that non-Christians who reject the Bible would even care.

    • noen

      I'm not a he.

      "It is odd to me that those arguing that homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible rarely appear to have read the best Christian responses on the subject."

      It doesn't really interest me that much. I'm agnostic and don't care what the Bible has to say about it. All I did was to do a quick google search to easily find some counter examples. The arguments at the pages I linked to seem pretty good to me and they provided a counter point to Payton's claims. I would expect that someone reading the discussion would then read them and come to their own conclusions.

      • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

        Do you mean a counter point to Machen's claims? He wrote this article.

        If you haven't supported them with your comments, you certainly haven't contradicted my claims :P

        • noen

          Well, you appear to be defending it also. "you certainly haven't contradicted my claims" — Since you are now distancing yourself from Machen perhaps you should clarify what your claims are.

          To be perfectly honest I'm not terribly interested in debating religion. I come here because it is *somewhat* sane compared to the rest of the blogoverse and I think the site has potential. Maybe sometime I'll write about what I'm interested in if I get the time and motivation.

          • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

            I'm not defending it. Didn't you read my article? Machen wrote this article as a response to mine; in an attempt to refute my claims.

            My views are already clarified. Read my article. There's a link at the top of this one. :)

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    "All I did was to do a quick google search to easily find some counter examples."

    Yes I can tell.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    "All I did was to do a quick google search to easily find some counter examples."

    Yes I can tell.

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