God, Gay Sex, and Moral Failure

God, Gay Sex, and Moral Failure 16/04/10

A polemical discussion on homosexuality and religion.


Authored by: .


Most think there’s nothing bad about being gay. Those that do not are a primarily religious minority, and think so due to primarily religious concerns. They are wrong: there’s nothing bad about being gay in the same way there’s nothing bad about being female or being black. Believing otherwise isn’t just mistaken, but irrational and immoral as well. Decent people should scorn and ridicule the belief there’s something bad about homosexuality, and censure those who believe it.

I focus on Christianity and homosexuality due to prominence and familiarity. What I say applies just as well to other anti-gay religious beliefs and other sexual identities (e.g. bisexuality, transexuality). I do not deal with them separately to avoid repeating myself.

Why there’s nothing bad about homosexuality

Equality should be presumed. It wasn’t the case that blacks or women needed to ‘prove themselves’ before society condescended to treat them fairly – it should have been like that in the first place. So those who think homosexuality is bad should explain what is bad about it.

There are three main strategies. First is that homosexuality leads to bad things. Second is that homosexuality is bad in itself. Finally homosexuality might be known to be bad through religious conviction.

Does homosexuality lead to bad things? There’s a huge volume of research done on what correlates with homosexuality; some bad, some good, and most indifferent. There are also problems of whether results in one cultural setting apply to another, and much of it is confounded by stress induced by societal homophobia and conflict between sexual preference and religious identity. Happily, experts have already waded through this quagmire on our behalf. Take gay parenting – as if homosexuals can raise children, there’s probably nothing too badly wrong with them.

Here’s an excerpt from an amicus curiae brief by the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Council of Social Workers:

Indeed, the scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has been remarkably consistent in showing that lesbian and gay parents are every bit as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. Amici emphasize that the abilities of gay and lesbian persons as parents and the positive outcomes for their children are not areas where credible scientific researchers disagree. Statements by the leading associations of experts in this area reflect professional consensus that children raised by lesbian or gay parents do not differ in any important respects from those raised by heterosexual parents. No credible empirical research suggests otherwise.

Similar statements have been made by professional bodies representing child psychiatrists, family physicians, counsellors, psychotherapists, teachers, lawyers, and adoption agencies. This is not confined to the US – UK and Canadian psychiatric bodies say the same. In short, the people who actually know what they are talking about unanimously agree that homosexuals, far from being uniformly bad parents – or even sub-optimal parents – are just as good as heterosexual parents. Exactly the same story emerges if we look at other bad things homosexuality is meant to lead to: it doesn’t.

The argument wouldn’t work anyway. Pretend that all the experts are wrong, that there is some ‘endogenous malaise’ to homosexuality. So what? We should only object to those homosexuals who actually do these bad things (whatever they are), not the entire group ‘at risk’ of doing so. Even if homosexuals would be ‘better off straight’, their sexual preference isn’t a matter of choice. The question would be how these people could make the best of the sexuality they were given – lifelong celibacy or forcing themselves into heterosexual relationships would seldom be it. Even if the ‘facts’ are granted, they still aren’t good reasons.

So maybe something’s intrinsically wrong with it. What would that be?

Maybe it’s unnatural. But what ‘natural’ means or what’s bad about being unnatural are hard to fathom. In many ways, homosexuality is natural: it arises without outside interference, and it occurs in other species too. In this sense medical interventions are unnatural, but these aren’t bad things – unnaturalness has nothing to do with badness. A moralized conception of ‘natural’ is needed for the argument to get anywhere, but this begs the question: why takes moralized conception A, which rules out homosexuality, instead of moralized conception B, which doesn’t – save for a reason why homosexuality is bad in the first place?

Maybe homosexuals aren’t using sex the way it is supposed to. But there isn’t any ‘supposed to’ about it. Humans arose by evolution, which isn’t goal oriented: what happens to improve survival flourishes, what doesn’t dies out. Pace natural law theory, there isn’t a ‘supposed to’ stamped on biology itself, but rather a ‘just happens’. Sex is a good way of transmitting our genes forward in time, and that’s why our minds and bodies are wired towards it.

Homosexuality might be considered faulty wiring – having sex with your own gender isn’t a good way to reproduce. In evolutionary terms, it probably is counter-selective. But evolutionary advantage, like unnaturalness, has nothing to do with good or bad. Celibacy, monogamy and unconditional altruism might also be counter-selective, but they aren’t bad things.

The secular case against homosexuality is wrong. In many cases, it is doubly wrong: invalid arguments based on bad data. Although only touched upon, the case for homosexuality is overwhelming: it is vindicated both by the abject failure of these arguments and the (pretty normal, pretty positive) lives of homosexuals themselves. The reason why the vast majority of the irreligious think homosexuality isn’t bad is because – barring religious conviction – everything speaks obviously and powerfully in its favour. For all the insinuations, all the canards, and all the slurs you can dredge up against homosexuality, reality begs to differ.

As it happens, the ‘secular case’ is made by people who are actually religious. Seldom are anti-gay arguments penned by inquisitive Atheists forming their beliefs by free inquiry, but Christians trying to justify beliefs they are already committed to. The real issues are religious. Are religious convictions against homosexuality right, or at least rational?

How not to be a religious nutter

Assume God exists. Assume Christianity is true. Imagine yourself as a Christian. Say you know that there’s a mountain of evidence suggesting that homosexuality isn’t bad, yet your religious beliefs say it is bad. Which should you trust?

God cannot be gainsaid, but given how many slavers, terrorists and ethnic cleansers thought God was on their side, he is evidently misheard often. All sorts of silly (creationism, heliocentrism) and evil (slavery, segregationalism) ideas have been read into the Bible or endorsed by the church. Given Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition track truth unreliably, you shouldn’t stick to them in the face of immense countervailing evidence.

To take the Bible (rather, your interpretation of the Bible) or Tradition (rather, your tradition) in the teeth of all the evidence suggesting they are mistaken requires exceptional confidence in their reliability: it is belief in them no matter what. But belief no matter what is crazy – if you are mistaken, nothing can rescue you from your error. And we know that mistakes have happened in the past – in the case of creationism and anti-miscegenation, they are still happening now.

The sane thing to do is adjust your religious convictions. If your reading of the Bible suggests God made the universe several thousand years ago and man was designed specifically whilst all of modern science suggests the universe kicked off fifteen billion years ago and man evolved, it is your reading of the Bible you should reject, not modern science. Likewise, if everything shows homosexuality is fine and only your reading of the Bible says otherwise, you should look for another interpretation congruent with ethical fact.

Christians willing to do this are often called a variety of nasty names by those who aren’t: that they are selling out to popular culture, that they’re willing to take social norms over Biblical wisdom, that they’re not really Christian. But they aren’t ‘not Christian’; they’re just ‘not crazy’. The ethical concerns that speak in favour of homosexuality are both overwhelming and consonant with a programme of liberation which has an excellent track record: it was right about slaves, and those who said God wanted some for servitude were wrong; it was right about sex, and those who said God wanted submissive women were wrong; it was right about race, and those who said God wanted black and white segregated were wrong. It is right about homosexuality, and those who say God wants gays to apologise for their relationships are wrong.

Where’s the problem? What’s the problem?

The arguments against homosexuality are rubbish. They are usually invalid, often are based on false data, and are in any case woefully insufficient to justify the ‘Christian position’ on homosexuality. Christians might try to sweep these beliefs under God’s carpet to relieve them of having to consider the issue on merit, but we have seen this can only be done by adopting the belief forming practises of a nutcase. So Christians opposed to homosexuality, for whatever reason, are being irrational – and are irrational whether or not Christianity is true or reasonable. But why is this bad?

Opposition to homosexuality fosters discrimination. Those who oppose homosexuality generally also oppose their unions being given equal recognition before the law, oppose homosexuals adopting children, and at least want to preserve their ability to discriminate. All of these are harmful, not only to the minority treated unjustly, but for wider society as well

Not all Christians who oppose homosexuality are like this. Some might endorse a robust divide between church and state, and so not want any differential recognition enshrined in law. Also, although they think homosexuality is bad, they don’t think homosexuals are worse than anyone else: homosexuals are sinners just like they, and would still be sinners regardless of gay sex being sinful. So where’s the problem here? Hate the sin; love the sinner, after all.

The problem is these beliefs are evil. Homosexuals are accused of suffering some mental or moral malaise; of being better off straight; that any romantic or sexual relationships they form are wrong; that the love they feel for their partner is a twisted, second rate, facsimile of the heterosexual ‘genuine article’; that they are unfit to bring up children. Alone, these are despicable. Together, they are a programme to attack, demean and castrate someone’s sexual identity. They are appalling even if they remain legally silent – and are toxic to a just and humane society.

An attack on an enemy of freedom

Not all Christians oppose homosexuality. These people should be praised – it isn’t easy being right when your religious community is wrong. But they remain a noble minority; worse, Christianity itself seems to drive the sexual prejudice expressed by most Christians. Those who aren’t Christians probably won’t care what damage this does to the Church, but everyone should care about the damage the Church’s attitudes have on society in general, and homosexuals in particular. What should we do about it?

Opposition to homosexuality should be attacked – it is the casus belli for a culture war. These beliefs should be silenced not just in the statute books, but in popular culture as well. The two main sources of homophobic sentiment in the public sphere are the far right and the clergy. Neither should be gagged by censorship, but drowned in contempt and ridicule. The laughter that greeted Nick Griffin’s ‘almost totally non-violent’ KKK should greet those who suggest the equally ridiculous ‘disorder’ of homosexuality. When religions are co-opted to shelter it, they should be attacked as well – the rainbow flag should be stuffed down the Church’s throat. Anti-gay sentiment should be recognised as irrational, immoral, and illicit for civilized society. We should all come out of the closet as gay rights activists.

Acknowledgements:

I thank Nathan Paylor and Nicholas Inglis for their criticism of earlier drafts and ideas.


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  • Fedora

    This a fantastically well written article. It's insightful, cuts to the heart of the matter, and cites hard cold facts. The content is fantastic, and I could easily see myself linking someone to this article. However, the tone seems rather harsh. I undoubtedly agree with almost everything you say, including your attitude torwards people are against gay marriage. The tone is undoubtedly one of the most powerful aspects of the paper, but I typically have a knee-jerk reaction towards such words.

    Cutting away the fluff, I'd just like to say, brilliant article.

  • Fedora

    This a fantastically well written article. It's insightful, cuts to the heart of the matter, and cites hard cold facts. The content is fantastic, and I could easily see myself linking someone to this article. However, the tone seems rather harsh. I undoubtedly agree with almost everything you say, including your attitude torwards people are against gay marriage. The tone is undoubtedly one of the most powerful aspects of the paper, but I typically have a knee-jerk reaction towards such words.

    Cutting away the fluff, I'd just like to say, brilliant article.

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

    I really enjoyed reading this. Excellent social commentary!

    And I absolutely adore the harsh tone, to be honest. It's vigorous, powerful, and absolutely glorious. There's really is nothing like a good solid blast of orthodoxy in the morning to wake you up in the morning! I LOVE it; it makes a man proud to be right.

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

    I really enjoyed reading this. Excellent social commentary!

    And I absolutely adore the harsh tone, to be honest. It's vigorous, powerful, and absolutely glorious. There's really is nothing like a good solid blast of orthodoxy in the morning to wake you up in the morning! I LOVE it; it makes a man proud to be right.

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

    whoops, two "in the mornings" :P

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

    whoops, two "in the mornings" :P

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    Apparently I am "crazy" and a "nutter".

    I remember kids using this sort of language in their arguments when I was in the first grade but did not find their use overly compelling at that time either. ;)

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

      This is probably because the object is not to compel you, but to repel you. ;)

      I love you, and I'll keep arguing with you logically, but I cannot ignore the fact that there is more to your kind of error than mere incorrectness. There is also immorality, and this must be condemned.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    Apparently I am "crazy" and a "nutter".

    I remember kids using this sort of language in their arguments when I was in the first grade but did not find their use overly compelling at that time either. ;)

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

      This is probably because the object is not to compel you, but to repel you. ;)

      I love you, and I'll keep arguing with you logically, but I cannot ignore the fact that there is more to your kind of error than mere incorrectness. There is also immorality, and this must be condemned.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    The object of an argument is to "repel" me?

    What is my "kind of error"?

    What "more" is there to it?

    What immorality are you condemning?

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

      Did he offer an argument that homosexuality is acceptable? I don't think so. He may have, but such an 'argument' was not the point of his essay. The author is calling for the popular condemnation of people who believe homosexuality is wrong. The goal of his essay is to marginalize and exclude you, because he believes your views to be immoral. In saying that the object of the paper is not to compel you, I am saying that he does not primarily mean to prove to you that homosexuality is acceptable. He means to silence you and vaccinate the world against your contagion. All who are like you will then eventually die out.

      If he succeeds, he will have successfully made it so that nobody believes homosexuality is wrong, but without having confronted any arguments. This may be because he has already tried the arguments and you proved recalcitrant and stone-headed. I do not know.

      Your 'kind of error' is the kind in which you hold a belief which is not only incorrect (belief that homosexuality is abominable), but also morally reprehensible. What "more" there is to it is this immorality; that it is wrong to be wrong in this case. That is the point of Thrasymachus' article; to use the idea that it is wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong in order to advance a social agenda.

      The immorality is what we are fighting over. Is it immoral to believe homosexuality is wrong? I will give a tentative no.

      It is not so much wrong to believe it as it is to enforce it. The question is whether mere belief can in some circumstances amount to enforcement. It might be so if we consider social dynamics such as peer pressure, fashion, "political correctness", and pop culture.

      But I think it is certainly wrong in those cases, if any, where such things do qualify as enforcement. Voting is an example, as democracy is a vehicle by which personal views become universal reality. Will, in that case, is no longer a private matter, but can influence a whole nation. So, it might be wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong if this affects your actions, and these actions affect other people in a negative way.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    The object of an argument is to "repel" me?

    What is my "kind of error"?

    What "more" is there to it?

    What immorality are you condemning?

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

      Did he offer an argument that homosexuality is acceptable? I don't think so. He may have, but such an 'argument' was not the point of his essay. The author is calling for the popular condemnation of people who believe homosexuality is wrong. The goal of his essay is to marginalize and exclude you, because he believes your views to be immoral. In saying that the object of the paper is not to compel you, I am saying that he does not primarily mean to prove to you that homosexuality is acceptable. He means to silence you and vaccinate the world against your contagion. All who are like you will then eventually die out.

      If he succeeds, he will have successfully made it so that nobody believes homosexuality is wrong, but without having confronted any arguments. This may be because he has already tried the arguments and you proved recalcitrant and stone-headed. I do not know.

      Your 'kind of error' is the kind in which you hold a belief which is not only incorrect (belief that homosexuality is abominable), but also morally reprehensible. What "more" there is to it is this immorality; that it is wrong to be wrong in this case. That is the point of Thrasymachus' article; to use the idea that it is wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong in order to advance a social agenda.

      The immorality is what we are fighting over. Is it immoral to believe homosexuality is wrong? I will give a tentative no.

      It is not so much wrong to believe it as it is to enforce it. The question is whether mere belief can in some circumstances amount to enforcement. It might be so if we consider social dynamics such as peer pressure, fashion, "political correctness", and pop culture.

      But I think it is certainly wrong in those cases, if any, where such things do qualify as enforcement. Voting is an example, as democracy is a vehicle by which personal views become universal reality. Will, in that case, is no longer a private matter, but can influence a whole nation. So, it might be wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong if this affects your actions, and these actions affect other people in a negative way.

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

    Thinking back on what I wrote just now, I must apologize. I said something insensitive in claiming that it was wrong for you to be wrong.

    Is it?

  • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

    Thinking back on what I wrote just now, I must apologize. I said something insensitive in claiming that it was wrong for you to be wrong.

    Is it?

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  • Thrasymachus

    I don't quite agree with Payton. The purpose of the piece was to do three things, in ascending order 1) point out the overwhelming case in favour of homosexuality, 2) give undercutting defeaters for taking religious commitments over these and 3) galvanizing support against homophobia. As 3 is the most important, the arguments are targeted appropriately.

    So if Chris Bolt wants to say "Christianity entails there's not good evidence in favour of homosexuality, so the hypothetical of a Christian being worried by this good evidence doesn't exist" then too bad for his brand of Christianity. Because liberal Christians and others (those who I am targeting) are in precisely this dilemma. Further, if Chris is right about what Christianity entails, then the evidence for homosexuality is a defeater for Christianity.

    P.S. I'd confidently say yes to "is it wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong". It's wrong in the same way believing that being black is wrong.

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

      Of course, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you.

      But I would still say it isn't wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong in itself. Such beliefs are only ethically wrong if they harm anyone.

      After all, it was never written, "Thou shalt be right".

      See, I may believe that it is immoral to be a woman, but as long as I don't say anything about it, or let it affect my actions in any way, I'm not hurting anyone but myself. But does it still matter if I'm hurting myself? Indeed, if I were to believe such a thing, I think that would say something of my character. But that would just mean I was characteristically inclined to believe that sort of nonsense, not that I suddenly became a terrible person the second I began believing it.

      Therefore, I think that beliefs are sometimes indicative of one's character, but not necessarily decisive of it.

  • Thrasymachus

    I don't quite agree with Payton. The purpose of the piece was to do three things, in ascending order 1) point out the overwhelming case in favour of homosexuality, 2) give undercutting defeaters for taking religious commitments over these and 3) galvanizing support against homophobia. As 3 is the most important, the arguments are targeted appropriately.

    So if Chris Bolt wants to say "Christianity entails there's not good evidence in favour of homosexuality, so the hypothetical of a Christian being worried by this good evidence doesn't exist" then too bad for his brand of Christianity. Because liberal Christians and others (those who I am targeting) are in precisely this dilemma. Further, if Chris is right about what Christianity entails, then the evidence for homosexuality is a defeater for Christianity.

    P.S. I'd confidently say yes to "is it wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong". It's wrong in the same way believing that being black is wrong.

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

      Of course, I'm sorry if I misrepresented you.

      But I would still say it isn't wrong to believe homosexuality is wrong in itself. Such beliefs are only ethically wrong if they harm anyone.

      After all, it was never written, "Thou shalt be right".

      See, I may believe that it is immoral to be a woman, but as long as I don't say anything about it, or let it affect my actions in any way, I'm not hurting anyone but myself. But does it still matter if I'm hurting myself? Indeed, if I were to believe such a thing, I think that would say something of my character. But that would just mean I was characteristically inclined to believe that sort of nonsense, not that I suddenly became a terrible person the second I began believing it.

      Therefore, I think that beliefs are sometimes indicative of one's character, but not necessarily decisive of it.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    I believe it is ethically wrong to be intellectually wrong but I thought I was asking about what you meant.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    I believe it is ethically wrong to be intellectually wrong but I thought I was asking about what you meant.

  • Thrasymachus

    Not sure what the latter option is, but I only intend to place my argument towards those who think that pro-gay Christianity isn't impossible or incoherent. Which is pretty much universal amongst Christian and non- alike (even if the former are in fact anti-gay for whatever reason). So I simply want to argue that those Christians should liberalize their sexual theology because of the reasons I've already presented. If a Christian is anti-homosexual because he thinks that's entailed by Christianity, I'm not inclined to take that seriously. Besides, his Christianity is refuted by the case already presented for homosexuality. As I'm confident that all but a lunatic fringe are 'open to negotiation' on the homosexuality question separate from the Christianity question, I'm not fussed about leaving these people by the wayside.

    #

    Payton, let me elaborate what I said, as I think we'll find we mostly agree.

    I don't think it's necessarily immoral to hold incorrect ethical beliefs. But I think it is immoral to form ethical beliefs via means that are objectionable (bigotry, recklessness, or whatever). So if racist bigotry leads one to think 'blacks deserve to die', people should condemn you through forming ethical beliefs through bigotry. So it isn't belief content itself which is the issue, but belief forming practises.

    However, I would add that some beliefs cannot be formed save through belief forming practises that are evil. There is no way you can make an 'honest mistake' which leads you to believe 'blacks deserve to die'. There is no excuse for thinking that: the only explanation for why someone believes that is that they are a racist bigot. The same applies to anti-gay beliefs.

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

      Oh yeah, we don't disagree. I think my formulation is more general, and can be applied to a wider variety of possible beliefs in order to judge their ethics, but your ideas here are also entirely correct. It's not immoral to hold incorrect ethical beliefs except in some cases. There we go.

      I was about to use the phrase 'honest mistake' a couple times before. An ethical belief is immoral to hold if it is a dis-honest mistake, I'd imagine.

      And you're absolutely right about what you're saying to Bolt. If his homophobia and brand of Christianity must stand and fall together, we must make them fall together.

      • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

        Don't be such a heterophobe Payton. Try to present some actual arguments which show that Christianity can be true and homosexuality ethically justified. I have read the relevant literature. I do not see that you have. Yet you continue to use a condescending tone. Quite telling!

        Thrasymachus wrote, “Say you know that there’s a mountain of evidence suggesting that homosexuality isn’t bad, *yet your religious beliefs say it is bad.*” Now he writes, "I only intend to place my argument towards those who think that pro-gay Christianity isn't impossible or incoherent." I do wish you all would make up your minds.

        • Thrasymachus

          Where's the inconsistency? I'm targeting those who think pro-gay Christianity isn't impossible or incoherent, and saying that, in the situation where there is an overwhelming public case in favour of homosexuality, and only 'religious' reasons against it, non-nutty Christians should prefer the former over the latter.

  • Thrasymachus

    Not sure what the latter option is, but I only intend to place my argument towards those who think that pro-gay Christianity isn't impossible or incoherent. Which is pretty much universal amongst Christian and non- alike (even if the former are in fact anti-gay for whatever reason). So I simply want to argue that those Christians should liberalize their sexual theology because of the reasons I've already presented. If a Christian is anti-homosexual because he thinks that's entailed by Christianity, I'm not inclined to take that seriously. Besides, his Christianity is refuted by the case already presented for homosexuality. As I'm confident that all but a lunatic fringe are 'open to negotiation' on the homosexuality question separate from the Christianity question, I'm not fussed about leaving these people by the wayside.

    #

    Payton, let me elaborate what I said, as I think we'll find we mostly agree.

    I don't think it's necessarily immoral to hold incorrect ethical beliefs. But I think it is immoral to form ethical beliefs via means that are objectionable (bigotry, recklessness, or whatever). So if racist bigotry leads one to think 'blacks deserve to die', people should condemn you through forming ethical beliefs through bigotry. So it isn't belief content itself which is the issue, but belief forming practises.

    However, I would add that some beliefs cannot be formed save through belief forming practises that are evil. There is no way you can make an 'honest mistake' which leads you to believe 'blacks deserve to die'. There is no excuse for thinking that: the only explanation for why someone believes that is that they are a racist bigot. The same applies to anti-gay beliefs.

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

      Oh yeah, we don't disagree. I think my formulation is more general, and can be applied to a wider variety of possible beliefs in order to judge their ethics, but your ideas here are also entirely correct. It's not immoral to hold incorrect ethical beliefs except in some cases. There we go.

      I was about to use the phrase 'honest mistake' a couple times before. An ethical belief is immoral to hold if it is a dis-honest mistake, I'd imagine.

      And you're absolutely right about what you're saying to Bolt. If his homophobia and brand of Christianity must stand and fall together, we must make them fall together.

      • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

        Don't be such a heterophobe Payton. Try to present some actual arguments which show that Christianity can be true and homosexuality ethically justified. I have read the relevant literature. I do not see that you have. Yet you continue to use a condescending tone. Quite telling!

        Thrasymachus wrote, “Say you know that there’s a mountain of evidence suggesting that homosexuality isn’t bad, *yet your religious beliefs say it is bad.*” Now he writes, "I only intend to place my argument towards those who think that pro-gay Christianity isn't impossible or incoherent." I do wish you all would make up your minds.

        • Thrasymachus

          Where's the inconsistency? I'm targeting those who think pro-gay Christianity isn't impossible or incoherent, and saying that, in the situation where there is an overwhelming public case in favour of homosexuality, and only 'religious' reasons against it, non-nutty Christians should prefer the former over the latter.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    Where do you get that ethic from in Scripture Payton?

    "Thrasymachus might want to argue that Christianity is false or argue that Christianity does not entail that homosexuality is immoral but the assumptions Thrasymachus wants his readers to accept appear to exclude the advancement of such arguments."

    It looks like you want to argue that the latter of these two options is the case Thrasymachus. Where's the argument?

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com/ Payton

      Where do I get that ethic from in Scripture?

      Don't take this personally, but are you trying to say that you had to resort to Scripture to figure out what I was saying? You didn't already know that? You can't be that stupid. I won't believe it.

      Some things are simple enough that we don't have to resort to the Bible. God did give us brains, you know.

      • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

        Yes Payton. The harm principle. I find that impossible to square with the Sermon on the Mount for example. Yet even that passage is a favorite with liberals.

        Don't be condescending.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    Where do you get that ethic from in Scripture Payton?

    "Thrasymachus might want to argue that Christianity is false or argue that Christianity does not entail that homosexuality is immoral but the assumptions Thrasymachus wants his readers to accept appear to exclude the advancement of such arguments."

    It looks like you want to argue that the latter of these two options is the case Thrasymachus. Where's the argument?

    • http://www.highschoolapologetics.wordpress.com Payton

      Where do I get that ethic from in Scripture?

      Don't take this personally, but are you trying to say that you had to resort to Scripture to figure out what I was saying? You didn't already know that? You can't be that stupid. I won't believe it.

      Some things are simple enough that we don't have to resort to the Bible. God did give us brains, you know.

      • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

        Yes Payton. The harm principle. I find that impossible to square with the Sermon on the Mount for example. Yet even that passage is a favorite with liberals.

        Don't be condescending.

  • Zach Blaesi

    I see what Thras is trying to do here. The idea is this: If Jim lives in a society where slavery is legal, would it be right for Jim to hold his tongue, shrug his shoulders, and say, "Well, you guys can believe what you want"? No. He should speak out against slavery because slavery is wrong. In this case, Thras is comparing those who look down upon homosexuals with those who look down upon people of a particular racial or ethnic background. There are two problems with this approach.

    First, the approach begs the question on the status of homosexuality. The Christian might have good arguments for the conclusion that the view that homosexuality is sinful is significantly disanalogous to racism. (For instance, maybe homosexuality is more analogous to alcoholism or pedophilia. I do not support this position, but this is how a Christian might view it.) Of course, Thras does not believe he begs the question here because he believes he has good arguments for the conclusion that homosexual practices are permissible if not beneficial for those involved. However, I think Thras should have reserved the emotive language because it's only suitable if his paper succeeds. It's sort of like declaring yourself the winner before the game has even started.

    Second, I don't think intellectually sophisticated Christians are analogous to racists even if their arguments completely fail. After all, Christians acknowledge that all have sinned. Even more, the intellectually sophisticated Christian might say that on a scale of sin (if there even is such a scale!), homosexuality is much more equivalent to adultery and divorce – sins that plague both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. In other words, there is not so much an "us against them" mentality here as there is a "we against us" mentality. Furthermore, the intellectually sophisticated Christian should have great sympathy for the homosexual. The homosexual suffers from inclinations that are probably out of his control, and these inclinations prevent him from carrying out a meaningful romantic relationship consistent with a typical Christian ethic. As a result, the homosexual Christian must carry a great burden, and this demands the Christian's respect.

    Having said all that, I respect Thras's motivation, but I think it is misplaced. Finally, while I enjoyed the article, I think the interesting parts basically hinge on a bunch of epistemological assumptions. If someone wanted to write a good response to this article, they should focus on Thras's idea that the knowledge of past failures serve as a defeater for present intellectual endeavors. Should past experience and prima facie intuitions about ethics trump divine revelation when there could be an epistemological barrier between men and ethical facts? That's the question!

    • noen

      "First, the approach begs the question on the status of homosexuality."

      No, I don't think that is correct. Thrasymachus doesn't provide Biblical reasons for why homosexuals should not face discrimination but he does provide some reasons why they shouldn't. However the article isn't philosophy, it's social commentary. Perhaps another category should be created?

  • Zach Blaesi

    I see what Thras is trying to do here. The idea is this: If Jim lives in a society where slavery is legal, would it be right for Jim to hold his tongue, shrug his shoulders, and say, "Well, you guys can believe what you want"? No. He should speak out against slavery because slavery is wrong. In this case, Thras is comparing those who look down upon homosexuals with those who look down upon people of a particular racial or ethnic background. There are two problems with this approach.

    First, the approach begs the question on the status of homosexuality. The Christian might have good arguments for the conclusion that the view that homosexuality is sinful is significantly disanalogous to racism. (For instance, maybe homosexuality is more analogous to alcoholism or pedophilia. I do not support this position, but this is how a Christian might view it.) Of course, Thras does not believe he begs the question here because he believes he has good arguments for the conclusion that homosexual practices are permissible if not beneficial for those involved. However, I think Thras should have reserved the emotive language because it's only suitable if his paper succeeds. It's sort of like declaring yourself the winner before the game has even started.

    Second, I don't think intellectually sophisticated Christians are analogous to racists even if their arguments completely fail. After all, Christians acknowledge that all have sinned. Even more, the intellectually sophisticated Christian might say that on a scale of sin (if there even is such a scale!), homosexuality is much more equivalent to adultery and divorce – sins that plague both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. In other words, there is not so much an "us against them" mentality here as there is a "we against us" mentality. Furthermore, the intellectually sophisticated Christian should have great sympathy for the homosexual. The homosexual suffers from inclinations that are probably out of his control, and these inclinations prevent him from carrying out a meaningful romantic relationship consistent with a typical Christian ethic. As a result, the homosexual Christian must carry a great burden, and this demands the Christian's respect.

    Having said all that, I respect Thras's motivation, but I think it is misplaced. Finally, while I enjoyed the article, I think the interesting parts basically hinge on a bunch of epistemological assumptions. If someone wanted to write a good response to this article, they should focus on Thras's idea that the knowledge of past failures serve as a defeater for present intellectual endeavors. Should past experience and prima facie intuitions about ethics trump divine revelation when there could be an epistemological barrier between men and ethical facts? That's the question!

    • noen

      "First, the approach begs the question on the status of homosexuality."

      No, I don't think that is correct. Thrasymachus doesn't provide Biblical reasons for why homosexuals should not face discrimination but he does provide some reasons why they shouldn't. However the article isn't philosophy, it's social commentary. Perhaps another category should be created?

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    I think I just agreed with Zach Blaesi.

    I am going to check for residue in my glass.

    • Zach Blaesi

      Well, if you agree with me, then it follows you're not a Christian. Get with the program! :P

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    I think I just agreed with Zach Blaesi.

    I am going to check for residue in my glass.

    • Zach Blaesi

      Well, if you agree with me, then it follows you're not a Christian. Get with the program! :P

  • Thrasymachus

    Not to be a pain, but given the first subheading of my article is "Why there is nothing wrong with homosexuality", I'm a bit confused how people are saying I begged the question about the moral status of homosexuality. I'm not sure what I can say in response to criticisms like these besides "please read what I wrote."

    • Zach Blaesi

      I probably need to read it a second time before I make further comments. However, I think much of what I said is relevant to the article if my memory serves me (except maybe the begging the question part). I apologize if I misrepresented you.

  • Thrasymachus

    Not to be a pain, but given the first subheading of my article is "Why there is nothing wrong with homosexuality", I'm a bit confused how people are saying I begged the question about the moral status of homosexuality. I'm not sure what I can say in response to criticisms like these besides "please read what I wrote."

    • Zach Blaesi

      I probably need to read it a second time before I make further comments. However, I think much of what I said is relevant to the article if my memory serves me (except maybe the begging the question part). I apologize if I misrepresented you.

  • http://www.choosinghats.com/ C.L. Bolt

    I'm just having a terrible time thinking clearly because I am so terrified of gay people!

  • http://www.choosinghats.com C.L. Bolt

    I'm just having a terrible time thinking clearly because I am so terrified of gay people!

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